More often than not, ARPGs (Diablo, Torchlight, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, etc.) either limit your ability to respec or don't give you the option at all. For anyone unfamiliar with the term, I'm referring to being able to reassign skill points, attribute points, and anything else like that. I've always hated not being able to fully respec my characters in these kinds of games, and the result is that I usually don't play them. However, I feel like I would really enjoy the genre otherwise (I love Torchlight 2 with a respec potions mod) and I know there are people out there who defend, or even seem to require, limits on respeccing. I want to understand that side, I want to know why some people think not being able to respec is a good thing. So if you're someone who prefers limits on respeccing or not being able to do it at all: Why? I genuinely want someone to change my mind on this, or at least make me okay with it.

In case anyone is curious about my viewpoint, the quick version is that I feel like not being able to respec forces me to either risk wasting time on characters that can turn out badly, or follow a build online which takes away all of the fun of making your own character. I like being able to experiment without worrying about anything being permanent on a character that could have tens of hours put into them. The thought of messing up a build and needing to restart to fix it, or even just having those few misspent points I can never get back, is extremely off-putting for me.

Well I don't care about it.
I first assign minimum point to unlock next point to see how my character makes progress and then according to need I feed them points.
In Torchlight I modded the pet to a dragon like creature and kept feeding him.

Why limit this discussion to ARPGs?

There are plenty of turn-based RPGs that do not allow respecing.

I found that, for example, the Avadon series is more enjoyable with the cheat that allows you to respec (though it can be a bit silly, as the game allows you to use that cheat even during battle, which I think might be going *too* far). That works fine until you run into a game that doesn't let you do that, such as Dragon Quest 8. In DQ8, as soon as you get experience to gain a level, you immediately level up (you can't choose to delay it), and when you level up, you *must* spend all your bonus points before the game can continue.

Dragon Quest 9, fortunately, fixed this by allowing you to save skill points, as did Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker. (I hear DQ8 has iOS and 3DS versions. Do they allow you to save skill points?)

Incidentally, the common inability to respec is one reason I've decided I don't like skill point systems.

ARPGs are just what I had in mind, but if people want to discuss it for other genres then that's cool too.

I had no idea the Avadon games even had cheats, let alone respec ones. That's good to know.

I don't remember having to spend all the points in DQ8. It's been awhile since I played it. Android version is nice, no voice over and a tad limited, as expected, but core experience is there. The game, as most decent looking ones, is a battery hog. I might start on that now, though I remember DQ8 being a real time sink. Not as bad as 7, mind you, but still a huge grind if you hoped to survive in the bonus dungeon.

I find it frustrating for sure - I think it's been a baseline in ARPGs partly because it prompts players to run alts in games that otherwise don't have a ton of replay value, especially early on.

Force people into alt'ing, and suddenly a game with 15 hours playtime becomes a game with 50 hours playtime.

Recent games have really tried to build on the notion of +level content/end-game, and/or dailies (borrowed from MMOs) but running several characters and having at least 1 of them turn out to be non-viable is kinda par for the course.

As someone who doesn't mind alt'ing, I still find it frustrating for sure, but other than D3 I think I've played...most(?) ARPGs to some extent or other. Just started Titan Quest (had only played the demo back in the day) and it has exactly this problem - have a low level skill I need to spend points on to beat one boss, but it's not a skill I want to have 20 levels down the road.

So...what to do?

And yeah, it forces me to do more reading out of game than I'd prefer, but I try to keep it in balance. One reason I quit MMOs/raiding was how much time it took to figure out builds and min/max. Here I try not to worry about it too much and just do a build that seems to make sense either mathematically or just whatever narrative is in my head.

Not having a (legit) respec option is what annoyed me most in Torchlight 2. I've played it for 209 hours (that's what Steam says) because every class has at least two builds I wanted to play. I leveled two Embermages, two Berserkers, two Outlanders and one Engineer. Then I started to use the respec potion because I had two more Engineers and two more Embermages in mind.

I love Torchlight 2, because there are many viable builds. But pushing your character to level 100 again and again and again becomes a bit tedious after a while. That's what I love in Diablo 3. You want to try something else? Just do it. Ironically enough, starting a new character wouldn't annoy me that much in Diablo 3, because getting a new char to max level doesn't even take one evening in singleplayer (and only a few minutes in multiplayer, which I don't play).

Not sure about ARPGs as I don't play them much, but the reason why I don't like it is because it degrades the believability of the setting and universe if a character can just completely "unlearn" everything they know and then have a bunch of new information downloaded into their head like the Matrix. I mean maybe if the respec reset your character back to level 1 (like a memory wipe) it would be OK but not if a Warrior can just magically swap his knowledge of swordfighting and physical fitness for magical knowledge gained from reading ancient tomes.

I guess that doesn't matter so much in hacknslash games because really story doesn't really matter in those games, what matters is loot and xp (which is fine btw). It's the age old debate of whether RPG is a simulation genre or more gameplay focused (which places like RPGCodex have been arguing for years).

for real?!

Yup, for real. Here's a video where a character gets leveled (high level players clear the dungeon, while the low level char waits in a corner and gets a crapload of experience) from 1 to 70 in 1 minute and 5 seconds.

Singleplayer takes a bit longer, since you don't get experience "for free". But your low level character can use high level gear with experience bonuses from your other characters. This can boost you to level 70 pretty fast. There are people who do this in 20 minutes, but I need ~2 hours (I'm a noob, obviously :P).

nvm, it was explained...

I think that this is a question of attitude. I still remember Finnish Diablo 2 lovers hatred against Sacred, when released long time ago. When many critics liked about the game, some Finnish Diablo2 players despised Sacred as cheap Diablo 2 clone, which didn`t offer nothing new in the action-RPG genre.

What happens, when Titan quest was released! Many Diablo 2 lovers praised game as spiritual successor of diablo2 and hoped for a continuation of the game. When Iron Lore Entertainment went bankrupt, many players were shocked about it and decided to mod the game, to keep Titan quest life.

Action-RPG always have place in my heart. My second PC game was Diablo 1.

Because I'm into pain.
Oh, yes, tweak my nipples harder, master, I deserve it!

You might like Victor Vran! It's an A-RPG where you can "re-spec".

I've always hated full respec. It doesn't feel like the same character that you've built up and taken through the world if you do that. If I take a character from start to finish and handle all the challenges throughout despite my focus and weaknesses I can say that is my character. If I change my character at the very end because I know what the last boss is weak against it feels very cheap. It also doesn't make much sense when my supreme swordsman suddenly becomes awesome with a bow but can no longer hack through a paper bag with his blade.

One of the reasons I love Tales of Maj'Eyal is the limited respec. You can unlearn you most recent points while you try new stuff and figure out your focus but it becomes permanent once your character progresses and becomes more committed to their techniques. You do have the option of full respec in exploration mode though.

I can understand why one would like full respec though. It's very convenient. It's rarely my thing though.