Aliasalpha: I played them pretty much back to back and whilst Fallout was GOOD, it wasn't Ultima or Baldurs Gate level good, the interface was clunky, the game a bit buggy and unpredictable (a fine tradition that bethesda upholds), quests broke for no reason, the party AI was dumber than a box full of EA executives and while I could see why it was heralded as something new and great, I think it was over-praised.
Depends which Ultima you are talking about, because the serie started as dungeon-crawlers then got into the innovative "simulated worlds", some letting you more or less explore and others being very plot-driven, while the later episodes are more action-oriented. And even then it also depends what aspects you compare to Fallout's, because if most Ultima gave you some living world and nice ways to interact with it, the narrative was pretty linear and even if you could wander a bit away from the road, it still led you to the same place. Fallout on the other hand is the first game to really give choices and consequences to the player, with multiple viable ways to advance the narrative, and do it in a non-linear fashion. Add also some skill and attribute checks and you got options that get restricted to only certain types of characters, which helps to provide a different game if you replay with another kind of character. Sure, many other games did that after and it is now expected to find these elements in a modern CRPG, but Fallout for the most part did them better and/or mixed them better. Plus it also offered a somewhat realistic post-apocalyptic setting, which was — and still is — a breath of fresh air when compared to all the generic fantasy games the genre is filled with. Fallout was hardly popular when it was released, but gained respect through the years for a reason.
As for Baldur's Gate, it came one year after Fallout and brought nothing new to the table. What's more it used a quite comfortable generic fantasy world and art direction, had a non-interesting plot and characters, some annoying real-time with pause combat, and mostly boring exploration. To its defense, some of the dungeons are pretty good though and it is easy to get into it, and the fact that it looks pretty do not hurt, but overall it's a average game, definitely not as innovative and original as Fallout.
What exactly is clunky about the interface? I agree that the inventory is clunky, but the rest has all the options conveniently available after a click or two, with a keyboard shortcut for pretty much every of them. It is also very easy to get the information you want; the character sheet is one of the best I have seen in a CRPG.
I did not encounter many bugs, or even broken quests for matter, after the last patch, nothing of the game breaking or obnoxious sort anyway and never really heard that Fallout was a very buggy game — unlike its sequel, though the final patch solved most annoyances. Not sure what you mean by unpredictable though.
The AI isn't very smart but then again Fallout's strenght lies not in the combat but rather in the ways that it allows you to bypass it. Still, this area of the game could have been better, I agree.
Funny you say it was heralded as something new and great, because as I said before it wasn't. It received some praise at release but it did not achieve the status it had now until a few years passed, while a lesser game like Baldur's Gate enjoyed great critical reception right from release.
Aliasalpha: Fallout 2 was clearly an interative development rather than anything revolutionary because it had ALL the same problems that Fallout 1 did, [...]
It did inherit many of the traits of the original, good or bad, but also failed on many more levels: the somewhat realistic setting got turned into a theme park with elements that do not belong in a PA setting; too much lulz and popculture references; greater emphasis on combat while it was a weak point of the original; it got more quest than the first game but most of these are of the fed-ex and obnoxious variety; story and characters, especially villains, were weaker; etc. It had some good, and even very good, use of skill checks and overlapping quests, with some sweet choices and consequences, such as New Reno, but these did not fit to the setting and were too anchored in our own popculture.
Aliasalpha: Fallout Tactics was another case where a different game in the same universe was seen as a betrayal and shouted down before it got a real chance.
Simply because it's easy to see during previews that some people just can't grab what made Fallout great in the first place. And I'm not even talking about the gameplay but the setting. BoS acting as wasteland police? Furry deathclaws? Beastmasters? Nigga, please!
Aliasalpha: And people wonder why we get nothing but safe predictable sequels!
Because they sell. But what does it have to do with Fallout: Tactics?
Aliasalpha: The gameplay in Tactics was absolutely excellent [...]
It had the potential to be great but it was brought down by poor and linear level design. It shines in levels like the second one, where you can approach the objective in different ways, but most of the game has your squad follow only one path through the level and that's just boring. Jagged Alliance 2 came out two years before and has excellent squad tactics gameplay, without even getting into the strategic elements that FO:T doesn't have. Even X-COM combat, which is still very good to this day despite its age, has more variety than FO:T where you always know that this enemy will wait for you around the corner. As it is, it is a nice squad tactics lite game with Fallout elements, but that's about it.
Aliasalpha: 3 has basically continued the tradition of being an imperfect yet "pretty good" game set in a postapocalyptic wasteland which is all thats left after a paranoid 1950s style society with nuclear powered cars, robots and communists under the bed.
Except the exploration of some parts of the game, I still fail to see what's pretty good about Fallout 3. The story takes the weakest elements of the franchise, like the Enclave, has some retarded characters — an frivolous shopkeeper who wants to publish a book in a post-apoc world, need I say more? — some retarded writing — consider the infamous "I'm looking for my father, you know, middle-aged guy" or "[Intelligence] So you fight the good fight with your voice." — stats with little impact, or another version of the post-apoc theme park. Notice that except the first point, nothing has anything to do with the game being Fallout or not, though Bethesda certainly picked up where BIS left with Fallout 2 and the lulzy content. In terms of the Fallout franchise itself, it is basically composed of one very good game with a coherent setting and the rest is filled with "wouldn't it be cool if" content, with varying degrees of quality of gameplay around it.
Aliasalpha: For a short summation: You don't like it, I do. Now we've esstablished that lets talk about something else.
If it's just about liking or not, let's. If it's about quality, something immanent, I think we can keep going a bit more.
soulgrindr: More seriously, objectivity in the arts seems impossible to me. To appreciate art you have to accept it and effectively "meet it half way". You also have to have no preconceptions (almost impossible in itself, and a problem for many with bethesda it seems).
It is very much possible, and necessary. Without any sort of objectivity, if all is subjective, then nothing has any meaning and we should all go sit under a tree and wait until we die, because what's the point of doing something if no action has meaning?
soulgrindr: While it might be possible for someone to objectively review something, that person would have to be so spock/robot like that no one would trust their views... and those views would be worthless.
A good critic will place his personal bias away, because like and dislike have no place in critical thinking. Ironically enough it takes some sensitivity as well as logic to appreciate a good work of art, see how it communicates, how it does it differently from other works, what might make it more effective than another at this, etc. If everything is worth the same, then there is no need to push the boundaries forward and try to innovate, because all we do is doomed to be the same as what had been done before.
soulgrindr: I've played games with bad story, bad graphics, average gameplay, dumb ai, etc..
If objectivity is impossible, how can you claim that story or graphics can be bad?
soulgrindr: Objectivity in arts misses the point. (and someone looking for bad (or good) will usually find what they're looking for).
Total objectivity doesn't exist, and that's why we can, and should, debate things but only if we are on the same level. Using only emotions is particularly worthless because emotions are fickle and very personal, which means that someone else might feel totally different emotions than those I feel in front of some work, or I may even feel different emotions at another part of my life due to some events. You can't build anything on that ground because it's not stable at all. The moment something is objectified, it will objectify everything else around it, giving some stable ground for comparison and discussion. But that requires some bit of work and thinking, something not everyone is ready to partake in.
Aliasalpha: It rather does, pretty much everything I've read about various forms of art can only agree on one solitary thing, that the goal is to create an emotional reaction in the audience. As long as we're each unique, there can be no realistically objective stance on anything artistic
Even lesser art can potentialy create a reaction in someone, because we are indeed different and come from various background. But does that make this lesser piece of art good? The primary function of art is communication and you can quantify how good or bad a piece of art does it. Simple exemple: if in a movie a character do something unbelievably stupid for no special reason — something the horror genre is very famous for — that's bad storytelling and it makes you care less about him because it is obvious he is only following the plot, but if a character acts in a believable way, people will probably care more about him because he will drive the plot forward. It's a lot of stuff like this that can help to critically appreciate something. In the end, it might not make you like or dislike something, that's based on emotions — and I have no problem admitting that I like a lot of crap! — but it allows you to separate greatness from mediocrity, innovation from stagnation. I'll even go further and say that I strongly believe that the more one avoids great works, the duller his senses become and prevent him from appreciating great works.
Delixe: By mentioning I was a fan and proving that It tells you that I was one of the people with the knives out ready to hate the games.
Ah, so you are a spokesperson of the people. Everything is clear now.