Hi all,

In my GOG library I have the following late 90s / early 00s CRPGs which I've always intended to get around to eventually (no Enhanced Edition for me, so you can tell I got these long ago!):

- Fallout, Fallout 2
- All Infinity Engine games (Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale series, Planescape: Torment)
- Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
- Divine Divinity, Beyond Divinity
- The Temple of Elemental Evil
- Neverwinter Nights + expansions
- Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader
- Heretic Kingdoms: The Inquisition

I am not entirely sure how to go about playing the above :P
(Yes, I have Neverwinter Nights 2 and its expansions but that's more modern, will play after the above. And yes, I have the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic series too and more, but I'm obviously limiting this list to what I chose to play from a specific subgenre of RPGs: the top-down, isometric perspective CRPG from the late 90s / early 00s.)

I have fairly limited experience with the RPG genre in general - perhaps the RPGs most relevant to this topic that I've played would be Dungeon Siege (+ expansion), Geneforge (will also play Geneforge 5 at some point), The Bard's Tale (2004), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (with the expansion, will play Ultima VII Part Two: Serpent Isle with the expansion before anything from the above list) and... some RTS-RPG hybrids: Warlords Battlecry III, Spellforce: The Order of Dawn - and will play the rest of the series, Warcraft III (+ expansion; only partly an RPG in the story mode, not in skirmish - where you can potentially max out heroes in one match without permanent choice in character development). I also played Deus Ex (immersive sim - I know) which is relevant here mostly for its choice and consequences design.

Disclosure: I do have extensive experience with the RTS genre and this may have an influence on personal taste.

To those of you with experience: based on the above, what order-of-play would you recommend? The simplest would be to play by order of release date, but I've already discarded that option (except for games that are in the same series).

Ideas

I think starting with Baldur's Gate would make the most sense: yeah, Fallout released earlier (so did Fallout 2 actually), but I gathered the Fallout games are more thought-provoking and would rather do the 'vanilla' fantasy experience that best characterises Baldur's Gate first.

In the same vein, I would rather restrain myself and push back playing Planescape: Torment towards the end of the list because it's supposed to have the best narrative and I'm mostly into this for the narrative experience - and I like to save the best for last...
Up to a point anyway - some old forum post proposed the following order:
- Baldur's Gate + expansion
- Icewind Dale + expansion
- Baldur's Gate 2 + expansion
- Planescape: Torment
- Icewind Dale 2
- Neverwinter Nights 2 + expansions
hilariously skipping Neverwinter Nights + expansions because "the official modules for it are awful". Now, I'm not a grognard, and will definitely play Neverwinter Nights + expansions when the time comes (and after finishing the official stuff, will likely try some community-made content). Most of the proposed order deals with Infinity Engine titles, the idea being to mix things up with each game and not get (completely) burned out with playing just the Infinity Engine games. Of course, my list of games goes beyond Bioware-related stuff. Thoughts?

Also: graphics and production values do matter to me, so I'm not going to leave the Fallout games until last, nor bring forward The Temple of Elemental Evil into first position just because it may have the least interesting narrative. I can and do enjoy complex gameplay obviously, otherwise I'd need a "story mode" difficulty setting for each of these. Furthermore: I actually read manuals (and go out of my way to find one if it's missing). I prefer real-time with pause (RTwP) to turn-based combat.

And before someone points it out: I know Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader is seriously flawed, but that first third or so (according to reviews) sounds good enough that I want to experience at least that! There's a bit of a creative side to me and I need inspiration (I've done some modding in the past).

I realise this is probably exploratory at best since there are too many parameters (and few will have played all these games, I guess), but I'm pretty excited about delving into this stuff and figured this thread might lead to some interesting insights.

Thanks for any inputs!

The best game to play is the one you are currently most interested in. I really would not analyze it beyond that.

It's meant to be fun, not a a research project. So play whatever seems enjoyable to you in the moment rather than chasing some elusive best way to experience a series of games.

Simple and elegant angle :) you're right this is meant to be fun and not a research project. I'm probably too analytical sometimes... still would like to hear some more on this!
But I will remember to avoid getting too serious about this :P

What people specifically mean by this is that the default original campaign, which is known as "The Wailing Death" in Enhanced Edition is inferior in comparison to some of the other things out there. I dislike using henchmen in The Wailing Death, but I will use them in Hordes of the Underdark. Even then, there are parts of The Wailing Death campaign that I do enjoy, such as Charwood in Chapter 2 and the Creator Race Ruins in Chapter 3. If you are new to Neverwinter Nights, then it is a good idea to go through the Prologue for The Wailing Death because this also serves as a tutorial.

There is a chronological order to some modules that I'll outline below.

Modules that take place after The Wailing Death
* Darkness Over Daggerford
* Hordes of the Underdark
* Kingmaker
* Pirate of the Sword Coast

These modules make no reference to each other and therefore have no specific order in relation to each other. Also Kingmaker technically takes place in its own campaign setting outside the Forgotten Realms and is only included on this list because there are some items in it that reference The Wailing Death. While this could have been just laziness in that new items were not created or descriptions changed, it still makes it odd to encounter them if you intend to play through The Wailing Death but go play through Kingmaker first.

Darkness Over Daggerford and Pirates of the Sword Coast reference the Neverwinter plague but not to the extent that you actually need to have played through it. Hordes of the Underdark gets covered in the next section.


SOU / HOTU Order
* Witch's Wake (unfinished)
* Shadows of Undrentide
* Hordes of the Underdark
* Infinite Dungeons

Witch's Wake is an odd one here as it takes place outside the Forgotten Realms in its own non-DND campaign setting. However I am including it here only for the fact that there is one NPC in Shadows of Undrentide that references Witch's Wake. Saying that, Witch's Wake is the one module that I outright hate because it ends more abruptly than every game I hated enough to refuse to play to the end. You'll never get a sense of conclusion if you bother to play it.

Hordes of the Underdark is the direct sequel to Shadows of Undrentide in that the player character is assumed to be the same person. Although it also occurs The Wailing Death, it is not a direct sequel. Even if you use the same character for all three modules, your character for SOU + HOTU is one person, and your character for The Wailing Death is someone else. Also there is no specific timeline order between Shadows of Undrentide and The Wailing Death as these two are independent from each other.

Infinite Dungeons has a very loose plot involving one of Halaster's issues from Hordes of the Underdark thus places it after in terms of timeline. This really is just a massive procedural generated dungeon crawl with more loot than you'll know what to do with.


Alazander's AL Series Order
* Siege of Shadowdale
* Crimson Tides of Tethyr
* Tyrants of the Moonsea
* The Blades of Netheril (upcoming)

Siege of Shadowdale can be downloaded for free from the Community tab within NWN as it was updated for Enhanced Edition.

However Crimson Tides of Tethyr has not been updated for enhanced edition and must be downloaded from the NW Vault and installed manually (which is easier to do with Enhanced Edition than it was with prior versions.) This module has game breaking bug late in the game in the throne room where you encounter the rulers of Tethyr. Save the game before talking to them and if the game bugs out, just load your save game as I've always had it work after the reload if the bug happens.

Of these modules, only Tyrants of the Moonsea is a premium module for Enhanced Edition. The original canceled premium module version of this module ends after the battle at Elventree and has a game breaking bug at the arena that required using the DM tool mode to get around. The premium module version for enhanced edition continues things beyond the Elventree battle plus the arena bug is also fixed. It also makes reference to both Crimson Tides of Tethyr and Darkness Over Daggerford. Also don't use any creature enhancement overrides other than the official Beamdog upgrades as I ran into issues while using some other creature improvements.

The Blades of Netheril is an upcoming module. It is meant to be a direct sequel to The Wailing Death, Hordes of the Underdark and Tyrants of the Moonsea. I otherwise don't have any information on this one.

Dark Dreams of Furiae
This is another oddball as it coincides with a 5e DND book module titled Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, which itself occurs during the period between Baldur's Gate 2 and the upcoming Baldur's Gate 3.

Wyvern Crown of Cormyr is the one premium module that is completely doing its own thing and has no relation to anything else. However as your character begins at level 7 and has returned home to help out on the family farm, I typically prefer to play it after a module that has you start out at level 1. While this really is one of my most favorite modules, it's also that one module that feels like it it is being held together just barely by duct tape and staples.

@Catventurer: thank you for your detailed reply on Neverwinter Nights and its expansions - and for including some content made by the community! I am very much looking forward to playing this stuff - I have the Diamond Edition which is totally fine for now (I've installed it on my Windows 7 64-bit and it works perfectly). If I get around to modding then I suppose it will make sense to get the Enhanced Edition.

I agree that the OC for Neverwinter Nights is pretty awful and not worth playing. However, I'm currently playing through Shadows of Undrentide and I can confirm it is much better (although still a bit cliched). I've heard very good things about Hordes of the Underdark and I intend to play that one later on.

Regarding the Infinity Engine games: I strongly recommend starting with BG1, if you are new to D&D-based games, as it's a nice, gentle introduction. BG2 drops you in at around level 6-7 and Icewind Dale requires you to make a full party of 6 characters at the start, so there is more to go wrong there, if you don't know what you are doing.

Neverwinter Nights is the odd one out here - the first one just as much as the second one - as it is NOT a top-down or isometric RPG like the others. The perspective and camera control is actually pretty similar to Knights of the Old Republic, and IIRC the latter might even be based on the same engine as NWN. Also, as you can see in Catventurer's post, NWN is a whole universe with its own set of questions about play order and a long, long list of "must play" adventures as soon as you venture into modding territory (which you should, since that is what NWN is all about). So while it is one of the easier games to get into, I fear once you've started that, it will be a huge distraction from your initial list that will make it hard to follow your original plan and finish some of the older classics. It makes sense to put it last, or ignore it for the time being. Except ... The problem with saving the best for last is that you never know how much time and energy you have. You might run out of time, energy, interest, before you even get to the best things, and then you will have wasted them on the things you were trying to get out of the way first. I notice this approach in myself, too, but I sometimes question whether it actually makes sense. ;) So in that vein, EverNightX has a point - just play what you enjoy most! (Especially with long games like these!) If you're coming from Ultima VII and Dungeon Siege, I'd say Divine Divinity might be the most comfortable and easy to get into. Beyond Divinity is usually not seen as a "must play", from what I've seen it's just more of the same but less interesting (mostly grindy dungeon crawls?) , so you could skip it. (The last chapter of Divine Divinity is very grindy and boring itself - I wish I had just sped through to the end instead of wasting ~10 more hours on a tedious completionist approach - so regardless of how much you'd like the gameplay, you might get a bit worn out after DD anyway and long for something else.) I would play the Baldur's Gate games in a row, without interruption, as their stories are directly connected (contrary to IWD + IWD 2 which share a settting but not an overarcing plot centered on the same hero and companions). Of course there is a risk of getting burnt out when playing several of such long RPGs in a row, but I'd say that goes for any of them - playing IWD between the two BG games would probably make you more burnt out before playing BG2, rather than less.

If you're in for the stories: PS:T > BG series > IWD series; if you enjoy the tactical combat aspect: IWD series > BG series > PS:T. IWD is very combat heavy hack and slash, not very interesting in terms of story, IMO, its most attractive aspect being that you can fully build your own party, while PS:T is mostly about reading and making choices, with a more unusual and interesting setting and story, centered on a more or less fixed (male) player character and the combat being its absolute weak point. The BG series is the perfect middleground between these two extremes. Unless you choose to play a mage - then your first combat encounter will be the opposite. ;)

@Time4Tea: Thank you for your reply, your points reinforce some of the understanding I have from all the reading. Yeah, certainly where the Infinity Engine games are concerned - I really should start with Baldur's Gate.

@Leroux: thanks a lot for your very detailed reply! I understand the conundrum with saving the best for last :) duly noted, at the same time thanks for offering a different angle on where to start based on my video gaming history: Divine Divinity is funnily enough already installed and ready to go! I'll think about it...
You know, I have the equivalent of a small notebook filled with my playthrough notes of Ultima VII: The Black Gate (+ The Forge of Virtue expansion), detailed enough that you could basically follow the whole plot just like that XD which alongside other material (manuals) and strategically placed saves will work as a nice refresher before diving into Ultima VII Part Two: Serpent Isle (it's been a couple of years)... perhaps if I have the same approach with Baldur's Gate, then it won't hurt if I take a break before starting Baldur's Gate 2 (of course, the notebook may be less indispensable when in-game journals exist! in any case, where the game allows it, I keep a bunch of strategically placed saves to 'relive' story highlights, I'm quite thorough).
The nice summary on the Infinity Engine games' respective balance between story and gameplay is also appreciated and confirms other stuff I've read over the years.

I fully agree with first answer (EverNightX's), because if you decide to definitely play all these back-to-back, we're talking about not playing anything else in 2023 & 2024! Really don't do that. Play what you feel at each one time.

Hehe no worries, I'll take it slow :)

EDIT: for clarity, I was considering an ideal order for playing the games I mentioned, which isn't to say that I won't be playing other irrelevant stuff over the period of time it takes to go through all the aforementioned games.

I would start with Baldur’s Gate and Baldur’s Gate 2, as they are well balanced.

Then if you want something with a focus on the story or the setting, go on with Planescape: Torment (dark fantasy) and Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (steampunk).

If on the other hand you mostly enjoyed the tactical fights, I would suggest Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2 and The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Once you played through all of this, it might be time to give a try to Neverwinter Nights. The campaign of the base game tends to be a bit boring, but the campaigns of the expansions are much better.

I do not know the other games you listed well enough to provide meaningful suggestions about them ;)

Thank you for your inputs! In particular, you clarified that Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura would work as an option with a similar story focus as Planescape: Torment - good to know. I also note that there's growing support for leaving Neverwinter Nights until after playing all the Infinity Engine games...

What about "ShadowGuard?" (I understand it's another one that uses its own custom setting, but since you mentioned the other two that also do...) :)

Yeah I noticed my Diamond Edition installation also includes ShadowGuard :)

Just be aware that the old GOG package of Neverwinter Nights (unlike all the older D&D RPGs in your list) was never complete with regard to all the expansion/add-on content that was released for it in its original run. Specifically, the Diamond Edition is missing the "Pirates of the Sword Coast", "Infinite Dungeons" and "Wyvern Crown of Cormyr" modules that Catventurer mentioned. (You can probably still find the old versions of these somewhere, as I think they were made free to download at some point, but you'd also have to use a community workaround for the online-check-in DRM that was never patched out of these three.)