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Works for music.
Works for movies (physical formats).
Works for books.
I don't see why videogames are special and get to smack their paying customers around when the others don't. The answer of course is "they can" because gamers put up with it.
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StingingVelvet: Works for music.
Works for movies (physical formats).
Works for books.
I don't see why videogames are special and get to smack their paying customers around when the others don't. The answer of course is "they can" because gamers put up with it.

Actually...
Music: Notice how there is a heavy emphasis on a shift toward digital distribution. iTunes. Zune. Even Amazon MP3. We have gotten to the point where they generally stop putting DRM on the files themselves (in some cases, if you pay more. In other cases, by default), but we are still heavily restricted by the services themselves (as mentioned, iTunes has problems).
Movies: Thought the physical copies were still pretty DRM heavy. Especially with that emphasis on "digital copy" and the like. Plus, there is a heavy emphasis on renting movies from set-top boxes and game consoles these days.
Books: So far, it has gone pretty well (to the extent that you don't consider the written word to be dead). But things like Kindle are changing that.
So yeah, boned on all fronts :p
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Gundato: Actually...
Music: Notice how there is a heavy emphasis on a shift toward digital distribution. iTunes. Zune. Even Amazon MP3. We have gotten to the point where they generally stop putting DRM on the files themselves (in some cases, if you pay more. In other cases, by default), but we are still heavily restricted by the services themselves (as mentioned, iTunes has problems).

Huh? MP3s are DRM free now on all major platforms, CDs are DRM free, I don't see your point.
Also, to address your minor point, some 80% of music sales are still on CD. I just read about it on CNN the other day. The whole "digital taking over" thing is highly exaggerated.
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Gundato: Movies: Thought the physical copies were still pretty DRM heavy. Especially with that emphasis on "digital copy" and the like. Plus, there is a heavy emphasis on renting movies from set-top boxes and game consoles these days.

Renting is not owning, and when people want to own a movie they buy a DVD or BD which are DRM free. They might have disc copyright technology on them, but we're talking internet DRM here where you have to ask to play your content.
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Gundato: Books: So far, it has gone pretty well (to the extent that you don't consider the written word to be dead). But things like Kindle are changing that.

Meh... last I heard digital books were competing with hardcovers which are a minor part of the book business, which is all about paperbacks. I'm not really sure of the DRM on books either, as I have never bought a digital one.
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Gundato: So yeah, boned on all fronts :p

Uhh, not really.
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StingingVelvet: Works for music.
Works for movies (physical formats).
Works for books.
I don't see why videogames are special and get to smack their paying customers around when the others don't. The answer of course is "they can" because gamers put up with it.
avatar
Gundato: Actually...
Music: Notice how there is a heavy emphasis on a shift toward digital distribution. iTunes. Zune. Even Amazon MP3. We have gotten to the point where they generally stop putting DRM on the files themselves (in some cases, if you pay more. In other cases, by default), but we are still heavily restricted by the services themselves (as mentioned, iTunes has problems).
Movies: Thought the physical copies were still pretty DRM heavy. Especially with that emphasis on "digital copy" and the like. Plus, there is a heavy emphasis on renting movies from set-top boxes and game consoles these days.
Books: So far, it has gone pretty well (to the extent that you don't consider the written word to be dead). But things like Kindle are changing that.
So yeah, boned on all fronts :p

^
this is like masturbation!
also....boned! haha
It seems like conscious misinterpretations to enjoy the "sound" of ones voice!
No offense, the internet is everybody's soapbox to be tuned out. I only noticed the previous statement from following the conversation.
To add something to the conversation (not to any debate, no "sides" for me), the PC's extinction is more imminent that it's devoid a 2nd hand market for a niche as popular as games. No doubt, the consumption (or, consumer) is targeted when evolving media is purchased with one option like a ringtone. DRM isn't to secure loss, there's more to be made when revenue is consolidated into one choice.
Could anyone direct me to a service like Gamefly for PC/Mac?
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Gundato: Actually...
Music: Notice how there is a heavy emphasis on a shift toward digital distribution. iTunes. Zune. Even Amazon MP3. We have gotten to the point where they generally stop putting DRM on the files themselves (in some cases, if you pay more. In other cases, by default), but we are still heavily restricted by the services themselves (as mentioned, iTunes has problems).
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StingingVelvet: Huh? MP3s are DRM free now on all major platforms, CDs are DRM free, I don't see your point.
Also, to address your minor point, some 80% of music sales are still on CD. I just read about it on CNN the other day. The whole "digital taking over" thing is highly exaggerated.
avatar
Gundato: Movies: Thought the physical copies were still pretty DRM heavy. Especially with that emphasis on "digital copy" and the like. Plus, there is a heavy emphasis on renting movies from set-top boxes and game consoles these days.

Renting is not owning, and when people want to own a movie they buy a DVD or BD which are DRM free. They might have disc copyright technology on them, but we're talking internet DRM here where you have to ask to play your content.
avatar
Gundato: Books: So far, it has gone pretty well (to the extent that you don't consider the written word to be dead). But things like Kindle are changing that.

Meh... last I heard digital books were competing with hardcovers which are a minor part of the book business, which is all about paperbacks. I'm not really sure of the DRM on books either, as I have never bought a digital one.
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Gundato: So yeah, boned on all fronts :p

Uhh, not really.

The various e-Readers basically serve as competing platform formats, and most do have a built in DRM system.
Also, DRM on DVDs is still very much alive. Try copying a few.
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Trilarion: I think that while DRM free is sooo convenient for the customer, its also an invitation to piracy. You can't make it much easier, can you? Even the GOG titles are on the filesharing network as mentioned in another thread here.

Pirates will pirate for the sake of it.
Take the Humble Indie Bundle being largely pirated. Realistically you could have paid one cent for FIVE excellent games, but instead people were sharing their links to the downloads (the cheek, they weren't torrenting, but directly downloading for the website offering the bundle).
It's more a matter of jackassery (TM) than anything else. DRM free would work, and work quite well in the regards that the customer will gain an appreciation and respect for the company taking that approach, increasing the chances that the customer will keep coming back.
And those who get burned by extremely restrictive DRM may have the sense to avoid further products with such schemes in the future.
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Crassmaster: Also, DRM on DVDs is still very much alive. Try copying a few.

I don't need to ask Warner before I can play the Heat BD I just bought. They would never even DARE to have me do that. Why are games different?
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StingingVelvet: I don't need to ask Warner before I can play the Heat BD I just bought. They would never even DARE to have me do that. Why are games different?

'They' tried to do that with DIVX (the Circuit City thing, not the codec) but the public refused to go along with it.
Games are different because the general public hasn't refused to go along with the 'ask permission to play something I paid for' mentality.
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StingingVelvet: I don't need to ask Warner before I can play the Heat BD I just bought. They would never even DARE to have me do that. Why are games different?
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jimthev: 'They' tried to do that with DIVX (the Circuit City thing, not the codec) but the public refused to go along with it.
Games are different because the general public hasn't refused to go along with the 'ask permission to play something I paid for' mentality.

Yes, that is the reason I know. I hope that changes when they get around to doing it on consoles, but it won't surprise me if it doesn't.
Here seems to be the general notion that piracy is kind of unavoidable. While the will to do so certainly always exists, maybe depending on the normal price and the atractiveness of the product in question, it also depends on the difficulty to obtain an illegal copy. I thinkt that different DRM schemes are of different effectiveness in this way. Its wrong to argue, that all will be equally ineffective. E.g. a browser based game should be almost unbreakable because you never ever see the code, it remains with the publisher. So one way would be to make games partly web based (even single player games) in the future. I think piracy will go down tremendously. As a side effect your only renting the service and even not for a fixed period, so there is no money back if they kick you for some obscure reason. Also you will depend always on internet connections. Thats my problem with Steam - for providing a serious threat to future playability or resellability the prices are too high. Privacy concerns are the other problem. You don't really need a trojan/spy-kit from your local government, if you already have a client from a game company installed thats constantly sending data to a server, do you?
Yeah, I live in Germany (originally in Eastern-Germany where life was ... terrific, nobody ever asked for more freedom... in public) and like all western democracies we are rapidly giving up personal freedom while fighting against terrorism or whatever. We make jokes about the state-trojan but actually I don't think we need a new one, when there are so many already out there.
DRM free in the sense of GOG means the complete other way. You can't restrict any usage but you can't also block piracy. And well, in principle you can even resell your GOG games, however I would not know how to do it, since there is no physical medium or serial number or whatever, should I sell the buying-affirmation mail? Anyway, prices of GOG games are too low to really think about that. So its kind of an honour system. People who want to continue to have DRM free, unlimited usage, games must buy them and not pirate them because otherwise GOG will get into trouble and they will not be offered anymore.
Its like a true reflection of human morality. :) If nobody checks, would you still be honest?
Personally I do not trust my fellow humans that much and would think that it would rather not work on the large scale, but it will work in the niche. The future is some online thing like Steam. There the two issues are conditions like customer rights and prices and privacy.
Regarding books: wasn't there this ironic remote delete of Orwells 1984 from amazon kindles due to copyright issues some time ago which was truly Orwellian?
I actually would like to think about the least-intrusive, most customer friendly Online-DRM possible because thats what I (apart from DRM free things) would prefer in the future.
Thanks for bearing with me through the long post. :)
Post edited August 06, 2010 by Trilarion
Trilarion:'DRM free in the sense of GOG means the complete other way. You can't restrict any usage but you can't also block piracy. And well, in principle you can even resell your GOG games, however I would not know how to do it, since there is no physical medium or serial number or whatever, should I sell the buying-affirmation mail? Anyway, prices of GOG games are too low to really think about that. So its kind of an honour system. People who want to continue to have DRM free, unlimited usage, games must buy them and not pirate them because otherwise GOG will get into trouble and they will not be offered anymore.
Its like a true reflection of human morality. :) If nobody checks, would you still be honest?'
It's more than just GOG will get in trouble...quite simply i was not raised to be a skanky, thieving, spoilt little bitch. Whether it's a AAA release or a niche independent game i refuse to rob people so i can play a game.
And it is not difficult to find and download pirated software on the net, i could download with impunity, but i don't, and neither do many others.
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Gundato: Actually...
Music: Notice how there is a heavy emphasis on a shift toward digital distribution. iTunes. Zune. Even Amazon MP3. We have gotten to the point where they generally stop putting DRM on the files themselves (in some cases, if you pay more. In other cases, by default), but we are still heavily restricted by the services themselves (as mentioned, iTunes has problems).
avatar
StingingVelvet: Huh? MP3s are DRM free now on all major platforms, CDs are DRM free, I don't see your point.
Also, to address your minor point, some 80% of music sales are still on CD. I just read about it on CNN the other day. The whole "digital taking over" thing is highly exaggerated.
avatar
Gundato: Movies: Thought the physical copies were still pretty DRM heavy. Especially with that emphasis on "digital copy" and the like. Plus, there is a heavy emphasis on renting movies from set-top boxes and game consoles these days.

Renting is not owning, and when people want to own a movie they buy a DVD or BD which are DRM free. They might have disc copyright technology on them, but we're talking internet DRM here where you have to ask to play your content.
avatar
Gundato: Books: So far, it has gone pretty well (to the extent that you don't consider the written word to be dead). But things like Kindle are changing that.

Meh... last I heard digital books were competing with hardcovers which are a minor part of the book business, which is all about paperbacks. I'm not really sure of the DRM on books either, as I have never bought a digital one.
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Gundato: So yeah, boned on all fronts :p

Uhh, not really.

Ah, we're operating under different definitions of DRM. I am using the general definition, you are using the specific activation-model/phone home definition.
Then, by your definition of DRM: Yes, gaming and software is pretty much the only area where it still exists.
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robobrien: It's more than just GOG will get in trouble...quite simply i was not raised to be a skanky, thieving, spoilt little bitch. Whether it's a AAA release or a niche independent game i refuse to rob people so i can play a game.
...

I have to admit that I am not a 100% saint. :(
Last week for example I rented a DVD movie which was interesting but afterwards I didn't have time to see it immediately. So I returned it the next day and paid my fee but copied it before to my computer. On the weekend I finally watched it one time and (believe it or not) deleted it afterwards (wasn't so good anyway). Also, I share bought music with my friends on a personal level quite frequently. All this can include making copies and circumventing copy protection. But I also find myself buying a lot of this stuff here and there. The older I get, the more I seem to buy. But if I would go strict 100% according to the law... well I guess not everything is right.
So, here is my question for you: When you pay for something (like the games here on GOG) which others get for free, do you think thats fair? Wouldn't you at least want to really prosecute these people?
After all they don't break the DRM but they break the law. So, while GOG offers DRM free software, should they maybe go after file sharers with fake offers and lawyers?
Its kind of a paradox that cannot be solved: DRM free offers all the freedom but is like an invitation to pirates at the same time. It offers you the best and the worst at the same time.
No. Probably because we'll see more of this.
Machinarium's developers are claiming a 90%-ish piracy rate, despite releasing DRM-free. Which is suspiciously similar to 2d Boy's inital claim. Honestly? While I'd imagine the major AAA games would have a lower pirated proportion than 90% if they released DRM free, I would imagine that it would significantly increase piracy, as it would become a simple case of "extract this folder".
The people who give a damn about DRM are such a tiny minority anyway.
Post edited August 06, 2010 by DelusionsBeta
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robobrien: It's more than just GOG will get in trouble...quite simply i was not raised to be a skanky, thieving, spoilt little bitch. Whether it's a AAA release or a niche independent game i refuse to rob people so i can play a game.
...
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Trilarion: I have to admit that I am not a 100% saint. :(
So, here is my question for you: When you pay for something (like the games here on GOG) which others get for free, do you think thats fair? Wouldn't you at least want to really prosecute these people?

Neither am i a saint. There is certainly a hypocrisy on my part when i state 'game piracy is wrong' when i have watched copied dvd's, so in honesty it's a more a case of where do i draw the line and how do i conduct myself now.
I don't see it as a case of being unfair that i pay for my gaming, whilst others can get it for free. If a game publisher has a product for sale that i wish to play, i pay them, i don't feel hard done by, or begrudge them their payment because others get the same experience for free.
That someone has chosen to steal a product which i have paid for happens all the time and in no way affects my purchase or enjoyment of it. Let me ask you, do you think it is fair that you buy food and clothes whilst others shoplift? Is it fair that you need to work to earn money whilst others rob banks?
It's their choice, not mine and fair doesn't come into it.
Sure pirates should be prosecuted, their actions brought into the light. Why would i not think that?
Post edited August 06, 2010 by robobrien