It seems impossible to make a worthy effort and lead a normal life at the same time... I'll take my chances.

Yes and all should be condemned, so what is your point, lets just forget them all? My point is that the US has still the same power system that commited these crimes, they rarely apologize (I only remember Clinton apologizing for ruining Haitis food farming),they never trial any of the criminals and they keep commiting crimes!

Why should I be furious about Russians? I have no influence on their government, my government has no influence over them, it would be completely pointless. I am sure there are russians who are furious about their governments crimes and I am sure there are russian CrowTrobo/Stingingvelevets who say why do you always moan about our government when China is much worse?

And yes I am sure France would do the same, they are no harmless nation either (Algeria,Indochina?), I have no problem talking about anyones crimes.

Its baffling the number of people assuming he hasn't caused any harm due to his leaks. He's certainly the most ill prepared of any whistle blower I've seen.

His claims border on the absurd. He can, with a simple call, wire tap the president? The Triads are out to get him? Give me a fucking break. He's watched the Bourne movies too many times.

Very good point.

Thanks!

No, quite the opposite. I think we should remember all of them. I think a major problem with humans in general is their apparent inability to learn from the past. History is constantly repeated.

This can be said for almost all governments. I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of crimes committed by the US government or any other. I'm not excusing them or disregarding them. My only point is the US is no different than any other nation yet the amount of posts on internet forums with an anti-US slant is perhaps a 10000:1 ratio compared with any other nation (this figure is completely made up, its only for illustrative purposes). It gets annoying - which is why I made the comment in my original post. Though mystral's comment about the US being more recent plays a part I think - recent events will be fresher in one's mind.

I wasn't being serious, it was a joke.

Today they are looking for terrorists. Tomorrow day they may be looking for political dissidents, or people with "deviant" meanings or sexual preferances.

The really naive thing in all this is not being surprised that such extreme surveillance exists, but thinking that the US and other western governments will always remain benign and not abuse the surveillance data. In all the world's history, democracy and personal freedom is the exception, not the norm.

That's why I wrote "ideally, of course". I myself am not naive, so I know fully where it can lead because of course, humans are corruptible. But then you just have to take them down :D

In all honesty, if people really want such programs to disappear (which they won't, anyway) then they have to accept more threats to their security. And the masses will ALWAYS complain, be it they hear about PRISM or that without it we have some successful terrorist strikes.

I love the good old quote: "Those who sacrifice their freedom for security deserve neither", but I still think we have to strike a balance and at the moment, I'd stay it's not too bad. This of course depends on what else comes to light in the following months...

No, no and no. What do people think governments do? What do people think their secret agencies do?
If you think about it, there's no need for an outcry or to say anything is ironic.

A government is there to ensure it's people's survival. For that their secret agencies need to collect information. The Chinese are just too dumb to do it too openly, it seems (and they surely have some other, hidden programs, don't worry).
The European Intelligence Agencies were all well aware of this and that's why more or less all the politicians didn't point the finger at the US (that came with their people's outcry). I don't know if they were aware of the scope and I do wonder how submissive they might be if they knew about supposed bugs in European embassies, but they surely knew about the programs, cuz hey, France and UK do the same thing!

I think that is just because they are so much more powerful that they can commit so many more crimes around the world than say Portugal can. I don't find outrage about it annoying, I find it encouraging. -the only way to get governments to stop it is public awareness and the resulting public pressure. That is what forced Clinton to finally end the US supported genocide in Timor Leste after 24 bloody years in 1999.

We need more outrage about the drone terrorism, the torture prisons, the support of brutal fundamentalist regimes like Saudi Arabia,Uzbek or Yemen and so many more.
The VETOs against UN resolutions that the whole world wants is another badly known thorn in my eye. The resolutions against landmines,the end of the embargo against Cuba, the middle east peace process, and probably others I cant remember now. Every year the whole world except the US,Palau,Israel and sometimes Australia votes for these things, but you wouldnt know this from any press or news agency, you have to dig up those votes from the UN website.

I'd hazard a guess that most countries that call themselves a free-democracy are not only infringing but abusing the rights of the the very public they should be representing.

<Hand on heart> I would prefer to have all records destroyed and risk "terrorist" attacks then live in fear of a corporate run police state....and make no mistake, political motives are hugely influenced by some very wealthy and powerful individuals with very unethical conflicts of interest.

Anyone who thinks, "it's ok, I have nothing to hide", please send me your internet records for the past year, your bank statements and texts written. No need to worry, I won't do anything with it but maybe in the future..?