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General discussion (archive)SecurROM Insecurities(140 posts)(140 posts)
(140 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 22, 2011
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Trilarion: In the same direction. I always wondered how PC sales can be so far less than console games sales and then, if you compare prices of good games, the console version is always (at least here) 30% more expansive??
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Batou456: It boils down to the fact you're basically using bad statistics to draw erroneous conclusions.

Console sales are dominated by Nintendo entertainment systems, not products that compete with Computers for the same games. 2009 is the latest year we have the full NPD write up on currently, so I'll focus on that year. In 2009 the Nintendo DS by itself sold more units then the XBox 360, PS3, and PS2 combined at over 11 million units. The Wii dominated in second place with 9.6 million versus 4.8 for Xbox 360, 4.3 for PS3, 1.8 for PS2, and 2.5 for the PSP.

The top ten titles for software sold was dominated by Nintendo, especially the fitness programs. The only non-Ninentedo titles in the top 10 were CoD MW2 and Halo 3:ODST which didn't really perform meaningfully better then Nintendo properties despite the significant advertising dollars invested hyping them up, and likely higher development costs.

The NPD's numbers are well known to ignore significant blocks of sales for the PC, so it's much better to use the PCGA numbers. This is the top 5 console games broken down in terms of total sales, directly from the NPD. You'll note Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 managed all of 11.86 Million USDe total across the PS3 and XBox 360 versus Wii Sports Resorts 7.57 Million USDe and New Super Mario Bros. Wii in at 7.41 Million USDe. Total software sale revenue reported by the NPD was 9.91 Billion USDe and hardware 7.3 Billion USDe.

The PCGA report can be found here. It reports PC software sales at 13.1 Billion USDe meaning PC software revenues more then all console software revenues as far as such things are tracked. Hardware sales in client space are dominated by laptops and needless to say eclipse the entire revenue of Consoles in Intel chip sales alone. If you remove Nintendo entertainment systems from the equation to thus focus on the machines meant to "compete" with PCs the entire notion they're more then a glorified niche market versus the overall market is farcical.

Note that in early 2009 the Dolphin Wii emulator gained more or less full functionality in not only running Wii games but enhancing them to full computer resolutions and several emulators for the NDS had reached maturity, not to mention firmware mods, and thus the pirates had all the keys to that kingdom. Meanwhile there are PSP and PS2 emulators, but no emulators for either XBox 360 or the PS3 are currently available and are otherwise much more closed.

Hence you may note there's more then a little wrong the "Pirates!" and "PC Gaming is Dying" positions when you actually look at the research.
Thank you for the nice research. I was always suspecting that PC gaming fares better than people want to suggest.

However I originally wanted to say something much more simple, i.e. that games which are available for consoles as well as PC are much more expensive for consoles than for PC although theoretically it's the very same product with minor modifications.

Just some examples from my local amazon site:
Sims 3 PC 33€ versus PS3 & XBOX 48€
Mass Effect 2 PC 19€ versus PS3 & XBOX 21€
Bad Company 2 PC 31€ versus PS3 & XBOX 42€
Fallout New Vegas PC 30€ versus PS3 & XBOX 40€
Assasins Creed 2 PC 31€ PS3 25€ XBOX 60€(?)
...

So, in average games that are available for PC and consoles are more expensive on consoles which hints that the console market is less price competitive than the PC market.

Of course there are PC only games (Civ 5, WoW, ...) and many console only games (Wii Fit, ...) so this can be a reason for buying either of these things too.

However I can understand people who buy and consume console games only under the assumption that they do not care much about the extra price premium put on console games and then my guess is that people are equally willing to tolerate DRM somehow. OK, it's kind of a very vague connection, but that's what I wanted to say in the first posts.

But let's approach it from another side: in the end the DRM which gives the highest profit will prevail. No DRM could reduce profits due to potential casual piracy and strict DRM could potentially scare customers off. So, let's hope that moderate DRM is the long term aim for all parties involved.
Posted February 22, 2011
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Gersen: The problem is that when it will stop being pointless it will most probably be way to late to do anything about it, if there is anything that can be done against DRM it's now not when everything from music to watching your own personal photo will requires you to be always online.

Not to mention that it sends the publisher the message that peoples don't care about DRM-free and will accept all sort of DRM they might pull up. Which IMHO is much worse that risking not having Gears of Wars 3 released on PC.
I'm so bored of this discussion, I don't even know why I am replying. Do you really think me not buying any game with DRM on it is going to stop DRM from being used? I mean really, sit down and think about it for a minute, just roll that over in your mind. Do you honestly believe that?

Steam is widely praised, let alone accepted. It uses online activation DRM. Xbox Live games use DRM, tying your game to an online profile and machine both. Almost every retail console game now-a-days needs a patch or has DLC, both of which go through an online service you need an account on. People accept this DRM, people flock to it.

Not buying PC games will not stop this. Particular types of DRM that are bullshit like Ubisofts? Sure, boycott them, let them know it's too far. DRM in general though? Nothing is stopping that train. While it's still easy to circumvent I am going to enjoy my mainstream gaming before it is too late.
Posted February 22, 2011
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StingingVelvet: I'm so bored of this discussion, I don't even know why I am replying. Do you really think me not buying any game with DRM on it is going to stop DRM from being used? I mean really, sit down and think about it for a minute, just roll that over in your mind. Do you honestly believe that?

Steam is widely praised, let alone accepted. It uses online activation DRM. Xbox Live games use DRM, tying your game to an online profile and machine both. Almost every retail console game now-a-days needs a patch or has DLC, both of which go through an online service you need an account on. People accept this DRM, people flock to it.

Not buying PC games will not stop this. Particular types of DRM that are bullshit like Ubisofts? Sure, boycott them, let them know it's too far. DRM in general though? Nothing is stopping that train. While it's still easy to circumvent I am going to enjoy my mainstream gaming before it is too late.
Well, one thing is damned certain: if people keep buying games with DRM on them, then DRM is going to keep appearing on games. Yeah, maybe one person refusing to buy isn't going to change anything, but is it so hard to understand that some people just aren't going to even tacitly give their approval for this shit? Maybe, just maybe, if everyone that says they really don't like DRM would actually put their money where their mouth is, publishers might actually take notice. They damned well won't if people keep paying for it though.
Posted February 22, 2011
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StingingVelvet: I'm so bored of this discussion, I don't even know why I am replying. Do you really think me not buying any game with DRM on it is going to stop DRM from being used? I mean really, sit down and think about it for a minute, just roll that over in your mind. Do you honestly believe that?

Steam is widely praised, let alone accepted. It uses online activation DRM. Xbox Live games use DRM, tying your game to an online profile and machine both. Almost every retail console game now-a-days needs a patch or has DLC, both of which go through an online service you need an account on. People accept this DRM, people flock to it.

Not buying PC games will not stop this. Particular types of DRM that are bullshit like Ubisofts? Sure, boycott them, let them know it's too far. DRM in general though? Nothing is stopping that train. While it's still easy to circumvent I am going to enjoy my mainstream gaming before it is too late.
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Coelocanth: Well, one thing is damned certain: if people keep buying games with DRM on them, then DRM is going to keep appearing on games. Yeah, maybe one person refusing to buy isn't going to change anything, but is it so hard to understand that some people just aren't going to even tacitly give their approval for this shit? Maybe, just maybe, if everyone that says they really don't like DRM would actually put their money where their mouth is, publishers might actually take notice. They damned well won't if people keep paying for it though.
But that's like turning down a Mercedes just because there was some pink paint in the spare tire well.
Posted February 22, 2011
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Kabuto: But that's like turning down a Mercedes just because there was some pink paint in the spare tire well.
No, it's like turning down a Mercedes because you have to phone the dealer once a week or else the car won't start, you can't park it in any garage but your own, and you can't sell or trade it a couple years down the road.
Posted February 23, 2011
I try to compile it all in kind of a guideline:

- People who don't like DRM should spend money always only in the games with least DRM available and hope that publishers try out different methods from time to time and that by this a big enough market for minimal to zero DRM is created.

- They should only on very rare occasions buy games they really must have with full DRM and if there is a choice, i.e. the very same game with/without DRM should always go for the DRM free variant (unless the price for DRM free is considerably higher in which case I personally would abstain from both).

- Not buying games at all will not change anything, because without a market there is no incentive to create new stuff. On the other hand, if for some time only DRM stuff is released new and you are really uncomfortable with DRM than it's okay to stop buying completely because the industry just doesn't want you. In this case one might check some time later, if the situation has changed but otherwise should look for alternatives like board games, reading, gifting money to open source game projects, ...

- Piracy is not really an option because it effectively hinders the transformation for less DRM, being one of the reasons/excuses for DRM. And be aware that piracy is illegal and might get you in prison, and that's not nice, but centuries ago pirates were treated even worse. If you want to stay on the legal path, support liberal or left-winged parties (who think that wealth should be more widespread and everybody has a right for some property) but do not pirate.
Post edited February 23, 2011 by Trilarion
Posted February 23, 2011
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StingingVelvet: I'm so bored of this discussion, I don't even know why I am replying. Do you really think me not buying any game with DRM on it is going to stop DRM from being used? I mean really, sit down and think about it for a minute, just roll that over in your mind. Do you honestly believe that?

Steam is widely praised, let alone accepted. It uses online activation DRM. Xbox Live games use DRM, tying your game to an online profile and machine both. Almost every retail console game now-a-days needs a patch or has DLC, both of which go through an online service you need an account on. People accept this DRM, people flock to it.

Not buying PC games will not stop this. Particular types of DRM that are bullshit like Ubisofts? Sure, boycott them, let them know it's too far. DRM in general though? Nothing is stopping that train. While it's still easy to circumvent I am going to enjoy my mainstream gaming before it is too late.
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Coelocanth: Well, one thing is damned certain: if people keep buying games with DRM on them, then DRM is going to keep appearing on games. Yeah, maybe one person refusing to buy isn't going to change anything, but is it so hard to understand that some people just aren't going to even tacitly give their approval for this shit? Maybe, just maybe, if everyone that says they really don't like DRM would actually put their money where their mouth is, publishers might actually take notice. They damned well won't if people keep paying for it though.
But your idea of everyone in the gaming industry suddenly saying "no, DRM is too much!" is a fantasy. I don't live in fantasy worlds and I am very opposed to self-deception. The majority of people actually favor Steam's DRM over a simple disc check. When Bioware announced Dragon Age 2's DRM the vast majority of responders thanked them for getting rid of the disc check, even though they added repeated online activations.

DRM is not going away. Consumers will be able to shape the particulars but the concept itself is here to stay. You can either piss into the wind or enjoy games before they go streaming, it's your choice.
Posted February 23, 2011
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StingingVelvet: I'm so bored of this discussion, I don't even know why I am replying. Do you really think me not buying any game with DRM on it is going to stop DRM from being used? I mean really, sit down and think about it for a minute, just roll that over in your mind. Do you honestly believe that?
That exactly what I usually hear from peoples who don't go voting "It's useless to vote, do you really think that my single ballot will change any thing", no a single vote, be it with a ballot or with your wallet, is unlikely to change anything. but if nobody ever vote then it's sure nothing will ever change, not to mention that if you don't then you kind of lose the right to complain when decisions you don't like are taken.

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StingingVelvet: People accept this DRM, people flock to it.
Yes, and for years a huge numbers of peoples were smoking without thinking twice about it, it's only when you start putting huge "smokes kill" on cigarette packs that some of them start to assimilate the idea that it might be bad for health.

It's the same for DRM, until it starts biting their butts most peoples won't ever see anything wrong with it... but if even the few the who are annoyed/worried about DRM don't try to do anything about it then they won't ever need to change their mind.

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StingingVelvet: Nothing is stopping that train. While it's still easy to circumvent I am going to enjoy my mainstream gaming before it is too late.
Maybe it's too late to stop the train, but when it crash I rather know that I didn't give money to pay for the rails.
Posted February 23, 2011
All those analogies and comparisons and none of them really mean anything to me. Software is not cars, politicians or trains, it's a unique thing. The Steam model is highly successful and customer pleasing for 90% of the audience. I say that as someone who is not a Steam lover by any means, but I can see the writing on the wall. The Steam model is used for Xbox and PS3 download titles and the next console generation will surely use it for boxed retail product.

That kind of DRM that offers convenience and benefits is not going anywhere. Lash out as much as you want, like I said it's just pissing in the wind.
Posted February 23, 2011
It's like when training an animal: 70% praise (even if it was not really succesful) and 30% punishment. Meaning is that you should let them know that you are there and willing to pay money but at the some time make it harder and harder if they do not comply with your rules. Okay, maybe this is even more like hunting/fishing. :))

My advice: buy all forms of games with mild DRM but over time set your level of what "mild" means higher and higher while also spending generously on DRM free stuff.

This should do the trick if enough people are joining in this movement.

But they aren't. They either buy the DRM or pirate the games. So we are doomed anyway.

P.S.: If simple disc check is seen as tolerable or not or more severe than online activation is a matter of taste. I find/always found simple disc checks to be the least evil.
Post edited February 23, 2011 by Trilarion
Posted February 23, 2011
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StingingVelvet: DRM is not going away. Consumers will be able to shape the particulars but the concept itself is here to stay. You can either piss into the wind or enjoy games before they go streaming, it's your choice.
I guess some people thought it was pissing into the wind when ME1 came out and they planned on the recurring authentications. But enough people complained and threatened to boycott that game that they changed their plans. I imagine many people thought it was pissing into the wind to take on EA in a class action suit over SecuROM, but they won that too.

I'm the consumer. Consumers are the ones that keep businesses going. They need us. We don't need them. You may think it's pissing into the wind to complain about DRM and boycott games with DRM we don't agree with, but I and many others don't. Time will only tell whether or not we make a difference. If not, then I'll probably give up on gaming (although I'm betting there will always be games to play without crappy DRM on them). And guess what? I don't need games. I can live quite happily without them. Plenty of other things to do in life. But I'm not going to throw money at publishers and tell them "Yes, please, more of your shitty DRM. Thank you for letting me pay for that."

On that note, we're obviously not going to come to any accord on this subject, so I'll leave it at that.
Posted February 23, 2011
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Coelocanth: I guess some people thought it was pissing into the wind when ME1 came out and they planned on the recurring authentications. But enough people complained and threatened to boycott that game that they changed their plans. I imagine many people thought it was pissing into the wind to take on EA in a class action suit over SecuROM, but they won that too.

I'm the consumer. Consumers are the ones that keep businesses going. They need us. We don't need them. You may think it's pissing into the wind to complain about DRM and boycott games with DRM we don't agree with, but I and many others don't. Time will only tell whether or not we make a difference. If not, then I'll probably give up on gaming (although I'm betting there will always be games to play without crappy DRM on them). And guess what? I don't need games. I can live quite happily without them. Plenty of other things to do in life. But I'm not going to throw money at publishers and tell them "Yes, please, more of your shitty DRM. Thank you for letting me pay for that."

On that note, we're obviously not going to come to any accord on this subject, so I'll leave it at that.
You're confusing bad DRM with DRM in general. Consumers accept the Steam style of DRM, they do not like limited activations or constant internet requirements. I said plainly to make your feelings heard to influence good DRM over bad.
Posted February 23, 2011
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StingingVelvet: You're confusing bad DRM with DRM in general. Consumers accept the Steam style of DRM, they do not like limited activations or constant internet requirements. I said plainly to make your feelings heard to influence good DRM over bad.
Apologies, as I missed that point entirely. No, I'm not confusing bad DRM with no DRM. That's pretty much what I'm talking about: bad DRM (but I guess definitions of that may differ). Disc checks? Yeah, I'm down with that. Phone home schemes? They can shove it.
Posted February 23, 2011
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StingingVelvet: You're confusing bad DRM with DRM in general. Consumers accept the Steam style of DRM, they do not like limited activations or constant internet requirements. I said plainly to make your feelings heard to influence good DRM over bad.
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Coelocanth: Apologies, as I missed that point entirely. No, I'm not confusing bad DRM with no DRM. That's pretty much what I'm talking about: bad DRM (but I guess definitions of that may differ). Disc checks? Yeah, I'm down with that. Phone home schemes? They can shove it.
I don't like any DRM and I think it is all pointless, I just think some form of DRM is here to stay. We can make our voices heard through comments, letters and the press in order to try and steer the industry toward the better of multiple evils, which for most people seems to be Steam. When DRM is truly atrocious, which varies for everyone but I would guess Ubisoft's constant online connection DRM is a widely accepted example, then of course sales can be a weapon.

My only point is that lower sales of PC games with the cry "we hate any DRM" isn't really effective from my perspective. It makes PC ports and games less lucrative and less worthwhile for companies and I miss out on good games. I don't believe that any major publisher is going to start going DRM-free due to lower sales, I just don't think it's an effective strategy.
Posted February 23, 2011
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StingingVelvet: My only point is that lower sales of PC games with the cry "we hate any DRM" isn't really effective from my perspective. It makes PC ports and games less lucrative and less worthwhile for companies and I miss out on good games. I don't believe that any major publisher is going to start going DRM-free due to lower sales, I just don't think it's an effective strategy.
This is basically my perspective as well. I hate the whole concept of DRM, but I know some form of it is here to stay. But the failure in understanding this whole time has been mine, for which I apologize. I don't consider a basic disc check to be DRM. When I refer to DRM, I'm talking limited activations/installs, phone home schemes and all that sort of garbage. These are where I draw the line and where I say "Keep your DRM crap-laden games. I don't want them".
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)SecurROM Insecurities(140 posts)(140 posts)
(140 posts)