From what I've heard, shareholders are the ones pushing for "proof" that the CEO is doing *something*. CEOs are to blame as well, obviously. I mean, they put a spin on why a game sold badly and it's easier to blame piracy than to say the game was shitty. CEOs will always defend their assets as much as possible which includes developers working for them. But really, if a shareholder can't spend half an hour looking on forums to see the result of this so called "DRM", he's an idiot. The evidence that DRM harms sales is obvious to most - if you see a cracked version appear within days of release while honest buyers suffer, you don't need to be Einstein to see that things aren't going well.

I'd be careful about what kind of negativity towards GFWL you're looking it.

People are often talking about different things.

Interconnectivity between PC and Xbox together with achievements is actually considered one of the plus sides by most people I think.

Where people start complaining about GFWL is usually
A) The marketplace (limited, region restricted non searchable crap which doesn't even show on the webpage but only in the client even if your country is supported)
B) GFWL in PC games causing crap like having to start game, update required, quit game, start game, update required, quit game, start game update required, quit game etc till you're done with every little patch they had.

Maybe it's because I have a good computer but I don't notice steam loading time taking any significant length of time? And I have 150+ games. Updates is true although I don't really notice with my internet but I can imagine that being a pain for people with slow internet.
I've heard offline mode possibly being ... fiddly? But i've used it for months on end on my secondary without any problems.

I think if that's the truth of the matter I'd rather be naive to that reality. I acknowledge that that may be so, but then it doesn't deserve to be Wizard of Oz'd behind some elaborate curtain of half-truths and misleading statements.

(I suppose I should disclose: Co-lead Developer, Blind Mind Studios)

EDIT: As for the argument of: If that's so, then those are some disappointingly uninformed shareholders who should be informed. Uninformed shareholders cannot make informed decisions. (Getting them to listen, I agree, might pose significantly difficult)

People have been pretty pissed off ever since Bill Gates hacked PSN.

For me, this is what makes GFWL crap - I just don't get why they never fixed this. If they were to make GFWL an external client that communicates with the game, you'd be able to update it outside of the game without all this crap.

Another big downside of GFWL, is savegames that are bound to accounts - a terrible decision which is all tied to the points you can earn. You could easily solve it by giving a pop-up box saying you won't be given points if you use this savegame but nooooo.

But it is causing controversy and is creating dissatisfied customers; both of which causes buyers to hesitate -- this does lead to sales loss. Some customers even have become stalwartly principled and refuse to buy product which has DRM; those same individuals buy DRM-less games simply to aid their cause. We've had a number of them; some have even donated large amounts of money as thanks.

I could make the argument that not having DRM adds value (ironically, and exclusively due to games having, on average, some form of DRM now). We could go back and forth on the whether DRM does or does not add value issue but really it's meant to protect value. Since it can't perform that task: DRM has no value and only costs.

They only feel safe because they're uninformed, which loops back to the above doesn't it?

Why maintain a facade when it is only harming the company? You're just tying your shareholders' arms behind their backs and blinding them, using them basically as scapegoats to cover for your own inability to perform and highlighting that you're most certainly not trustworthy.

The real issue at heart is: Nothing is safe and nothing can really "be" safe; especially when it comes to software (though you can get pretty close with streaming tech. if done properly). If those shareholders are uncomfortable with that reality, they're in the wrong business. Placating them with lies and half-truths will only put your company in danger and, when they're finally told the truth, your head on a platter.

People on planes assume little risk because they're not in the business of assuming that risk. I'm not sure you can say the same of investors and share-holders whose primary means is through tradecraft in risk/gain analysis.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that I'm enjoying going over this issue, lukipela. This is a nice change of pace from my "usual internet debate environment". I feel that with your counterpoints we might be able to bring this subject somewhere interesting. :)

EDIT 2: Blast! TW2 just finished getting ready to be played. Please do rebut if you've good counterpoints but it may be 'til tomorrow before I respond. Apologies. :(

Don't suppose I can have both the girls and the cakes?

People are just naturally competitive I think and to compete you generally need to pick a side.

My own feeling is that a few DRM obsessed grumpy old men boycotting games isn't going to affect sales as much as an "0 day release" by one of the cracking groups. It's impossible to quantify who is correct at the end of the day though.

What we need to do is release the same game twice, once in a parallel universe with DRM and once here without, When the sales figures are in that should settle the argument once and for all.

He's just saying that you have to login twice when playing a GFWL title on steam.

In your dungeon siege example, you just have to login once.

Don't see how logging in twice is that much of a hassle though.

The reason Steam gets a pass with most gamers is because Steam has done nothing to earn the wrath of gamers. Sure, their rules give them the ability to be complete douche bags, but they've never acted on it. Steam keeps all their games up to date, offers great deals, and in general has been a shining light for PC gaming, giving the industry something to grasp at. In all the years I've used Steam, I've never had a single problem. I've had problems with games Steam offers that are broken pieces of garbage (looking at you Saints Row 2) but not with Steam itself. I can't say that for any other service I've subscribed to.

There are horror stories of people being banned by Steam and losing access to all their materials. I get that. But at the beginning of virtually all of those stories, the banned party will mention something about buying a CD key, or using a cheat on a VAC server, or doing something that is expressively prohibited by Steam's rules.

I have limited experience with GfWL. But with Xbox Live? Yeah, Microsoft's earned no points with me. For one, their 360 hardware is extremely brittle. I'm currently working towards I believe my third complete system failure. And it currently won't read any discs. It'd be one thing if I was simply the exception, but I'm the rule. Almost every 360 user has experienced some kind of hardware failure.

The Live service itself is pointless if you do not pay for Gold. On a silver account, I can't watch Netflix, use Last.FM, play games online, or do anything or any value with the online functionality of the system beyond watching other user's avatars, playing games by myself, and watching streaming content.

Which brings me to a big issue I have with Xbox Live: The hidden removal or change of features. When I first got my 360, there was a functional media download that would allow you to stream content from your PC to the 360 regardless of the status of the Live network. But when Microsoft rolled out the major update (or the one before that, I'm unsure), they disabled the feature and made it so for most file types you have to be signed in. Why? I have no idea. Occasionally a file will work, but before it was universal. Now it's luck of the draw. This means that if you have a network outage or the service is down, all streaming abilities are completely gone. Why is this? It makes no sense, other then to try and tout how great the Live service is.

And then there's the pricing and payment structures. The first problem is that all payment structures not only automatically renew, but in some cases do so at the most unfortunate level possible (monthly). And just recently with the major revision, they removed (again) the ability to cancel a subscription online. You also cannot do it on the 360 itself. The only way is to call Microsoft's phone system and speak with a representative. Luckily, they removed "Max", the automated voice system but it's not much better. Just to cancel before an automatic monthly renewal, I spent half an hour being grilled by a representative about my life and why I can't keep Live. This woman wanted to know every little detail of my finances, and situation. She also wouldn't take no for an answer and was offering me deals to stay on. Sure, had I agreed I'd have kept Live at a great rate...but then I'd have to just call again in three months to repeat this process.

All of that is ignoring how slow Live can be with astronomically slow download speeds depending on the network usage. And the absurd pricing structures for many of the games on the network. And the random game server outages. And the kicker? For all the talk of Steam cancelling accounts, Microsoft's already killed all the game servers for original Xbox titles. Eventually the 720 or whatever will come out, and Microsoft will do the same exact thing to the 360's game library.

So...In a nutshell (and 1,000 words or less...I think), that's why people hate Xbox Live and the 360 and love Steam.

It's a simple "us vs them" mentality combined with fanboyism. Generally the cause of any rabid hatred of a brand that does pretty much the same thing you seem to have a hard-on for.

- force downloading Counter Strike Condition Zero without asking, then resuming when you cancelled or paused to make sure you'd have the game preloaded whether you wanted to or not

- dodgy updates that completely break your Steam software until you uninstall ("whoops, did we forget to tell you that this means it will uninstall all your games as well? Our bad!") and reinstall

- Steam patch that corrupted the MBR of system hard drives running on NForce systems. People who discovered Steam was the source of their systems no longer booting got muted on the forums, topics deleted.

- refusing refunds for broken games that do not work as advertised (Commandos BEL for example, screenshots that show the wrong game, etc.)

- Dollar = Euro scam, which Steam was the first to use. (and no, it was NOT the publishers' fault - Valve took the step to alter the prices without warning anyone)

- shutting down accounts because Paypal acts up

- shutting down accounts because of "assumed" VAC cheating - later proven to be false

- shutting down accounts because you use a proxy (which many do to circumvent port limitations at university or at work)

- shutting down accounts because another person at uni was found cheating/hacking and shares the same IP as you

- VAC banning you because someone hacked your account and even though you reported it before it got banned and even though the IP evidence is there, they still don't give you the benefit of the doubt ... unless you write a magazine like, say, PC Gamer, and then they pull PR crap and want to show off as being the "good guy" by unbanning you while they're really assholes because everyone else in the same situation still remains banned.

- breaking your game or save games by auto-applying a patch that you can't get rid of - reinstalling the game in Steam will get the pre-patched version without the option to go back to a previous version

- making it so expansions only work with your Steam version of the game, if you buy them on Steam as well, and visa versa: Steam expansions do not work on retail games. (not always, but often, and often without warning as well)

- making it so "offline mode" never works properly and demands to go online at the least convenient moments, meaning that if your internet goes down, there's a good chance you can't access any of your games

- etc. etc.

Oh, there's plenty more - too bad my memory sucks but these are all based on real life examples - some from this very forum, others from the news, many from personal experience. Basically, Valve are great at PR but don't be mistaken: there's still a selfish company underneath all the shine and polish. You can argue that some of the above are just limitations of Steam (like the wonkyness of offline mode, or the way patches work) but when you've reported this several times to Steam support and other sources (yes I have) - for example, to at least give a WARNING that, when uninstalling Steam, all your games will be gone too and they STILL don't do it ... I call that malicious and/or lazy.

Regarding the specific subject (PC vs Consoles for online gaming & digital downloads), I really don't care. But regarding MicroSoft, I do hold some resentment towards them...

Their original "ground-breaking Windows Operating System" was just a carbon-copy (how's that for a dated reference?) of an already existing O/S...and yet MicroSoft gets all the awards & acclaim for doing it.

Windows has been pre-installed on every PC sold in a retail store pretty much since it hit the market, despite its constant need for updates & frequent crashing.

...but to be objective...

Being one of the wealthiest businesses in the world (2nd to the Catholic Church, I'm guessing), MicroSoft also spreads the wealth to numerous charities worldwide. And for that, I applaud them.

But their O/S is still overrated in my book.

What the hell are you people doing with your OS installations? :D
Hahahhahahahahahaha, thanks for making me LOL.