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dtgreene: Except that not allowing difficulty selection could result in a game that is too easy, with no way (other than using self-imposed restrictions that often involve ignoring interesting mechanics) to make the game hard enough to be fun to play.
Given the fact that my main point of contention is the only difference in difficulty is just changing numbers (increase enemy damage output and decrease player damage output for longer battles), I dont find it to be that big of an issue. I also find that older games tend to be harder than modern games anyway so lack of difficulty never was that big an issue.

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dtgreene: RDR2? (Could you please spell out a game's name rather than using an acronym the first time you mention the game?)
Red Dead Redemption 2

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dtgreene: Chrono Trigger can be too easy for experienced RPG players (though I note that Final Fantasy 7 is worse in that regard, not counting two optional isolated bosses that aren't even in the original Japanese release).
CT is easy for experienced RPG players but there are difficulty spikes, notably Dragon Tank and Magus. CT isnt a hard game but I also dont really see how the experience would change from making it harder (unless they rebalance the damage output of dual/triple techs, damage formula, etc.) which would make it a new game.

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dtgreene: Early Mega Man games have some difficulty issues. In MM1, Guts Man's stage isn't well designed, as it throws you off the deep end, introducing a mechanic in a context where, if the player doesn't succeed multiple times in a row, the player falls and loses a life. Fortunately, the developers learned, and a comparable case, Ring Man's stage in MM4, is handled much better; the mechanic is introduced where you only have to pass it once and failure isn't a death, and then it builds from there.

In MM2, which (in its English NES release) actually *does* have a difficulty selection, there's another issue, and that's that you can run out of weapon energy. At this point, if weapon energy is a death, it can be painful to farm new energy to try again, particularly since, unlike in MM1, placed energy pick-ups don't respawn until game over. The final stage has a particularly bad example of this issue: If you don't have enough energy to defeat the boss (which is immune to the Arm Cannon, your only free weapon), you have no choice but to intentionally get a game over, which takes too long. (Basically, it's a softlock if you don't have enough energy to kill the boss).

Mega Man 4-6 require playing too many levels from the last save point (that is, the last point a password can take you) to the end of the game, making them pretty much not feasibly winnable unless you have a huge block of time to play, are willing to leave the NES on, or are using an emulator with save states.
This seems to be more of a level design/program design issue as opposed to a "difficulty" issue. MM1 not sure how an easier difficulty would solve it unless they redesigned the stage. MM2 kind of proves this with them having a difficulty level but not properly accounting for the different difficulties (Im guessing normal allows you to damage Wily with the arm cannon?). I guess 4 to 6 could be solved with more frequent checkpoints between levels but I wonder if Inafune thought about that.

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dtgreene: Incidentally, the original Zelda *does* have a difficulty selection. If you name your file ZELDA, or if you continue after beating the game, you will be essentially playing the game's hard mode, where things are re-arranged, the dungeons have been re-done, and some new (and rather evil) mechanics are added. (I remember one of the dungeon items being in what is probably the *last* place a player will look, to the point where a player will likely think they've completed the dungeon before finding it.
This sounds like an example of difficulty level done right. Although more obscure (and likely intended for people who have beaten the game at least once), this new difficulty basically creates a new game with redone dungeons, rearranged items, and new mechanics. That, Im all for.

I find that in most cases, different difficulty levels is just the devs moving a slider left or right and calling it a day. Higher difficulties do not necessarily convey a different experience to warrant replayability and at worst, even break the game (for example, Shadow of War basically requires you to build specific builds to survive the early stages which defeats the open nature of the game).

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dtgreene: Final Fantasy 9's optional superboss can be beaten without touching the controller during the fight, provided that you have a good setup for that and are lucky, yet nobody (to my knowledge) considers that boss to be easy. (With noting that luck is needed, as this is basically an RNG boss, who randomly uses attacks like Meteor which does something like 110-9999 damage to the party, possibly killing everyone except the character who was almost dead (I saw that happen in a youtube video).
I dont find this to be a good example because we are talking about two different types of games. FF is an RPG which is about strategy when selecting actions. The player is expected to sit and watch their characters attack and even create master setups where they can kill bosses with one button click if they want. FF7 has Cloud solo kill Emerald Weapon using counter-limit breaks without the player pressing a button either.

COD/Battlefield is an FPS where the player is expected to constantly move and react which is why I think this isnt a good comparison. Furthermore, it an extreme example of BS difficulty setting since at the easier levels, you dont even need to play to win while at the hardest difficulty setting, you need luck to win (due to enemy grenade spam). Difficulty levels do need to balance between not being so extreme on either end as to ruin the experience but it happens.

If difficulty changes did result in pretty significant changes in experience (not to the extreme of your Zelda example but still significant), then I am all for them. I do think KH2 did a great job with critical mode, providing additional abilities that allows you to hit harder at the expense of having lower health which meant that battles ended quicker but you needed to be more defensive. Playing on level 1 (self-imposed but provided by the game) also creates a very different experience, requiring the player to understand the game and enemy moves to survive. I find that alot of games dont meet this standard and often hurt the experience with difficulty levels. If done well, Im all for it but if they cant, I rather they just have one setting that was the "intended" experience they want to give to players.
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: MM2 kind of proves this with them having a difficulty level but not properly accounting for the different difficulties (Im guessing normal allows you to damage Wily with the arm cannon?).
Actually, MM2's difficulty only affects the damage you do; it doesn't affect whether a weapon works on an enemy, so you still can't hurt the final boss with the arm cannon.

On the other hand, it does take less weapon energy to kill the final boss if playing on normal.

One thing that's worth noting is that, on difficult, some enemies react when hit, for example by briefly splitting into parts. On normal, said enemy might die in one hit. Also worth noting that there are a couple cases where a boss takes two hits to kill on difficult (with the correct weapon), but only one on normal.

Also, the Japanese version did not have a difficulty selection, and was permanently on "difficult".

By the way, the Anniversary Collection has a different easy mode; instead of increasing damage dealt, it reduces the damage you take. Notably, this makes it so that the lasers in Quickman's stage are not instant death.

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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: I guess 4 to 6 could be solved with more frequent checkpoints between levels but I wonder if Inafune thought about that.
These games, unlike the others that have only one castle at the end, have *two* castles at the end. The problem could be fixed simply by making it so that, once you clear the first castle, you get a password that takes you directly to the second, instead of forcing the player to re-play the first castle after turning the NES off and on again.

Final Fantasy 3 has a similar issue, except that, on a game over, you have to go back to your last save instead of just the beginning of the area, so it's actually worse.
Post edited July 14, 2022 by dtgreene
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: Playing on level 1 (self-imposed but provided by the game) also creates a very different experience, requiring the player to understand the game and enemy moves to survive.
Thing is, not all games with XP leveling admit such a challenge, for various reasons:
* Mandatory XP with automatic level ups. Essentially, even if you're actively trying to avoid XP (which can be a pain), you are going to gain some levels.
* Hard level gates. Crystalis (NES), for example, literally can't be cleared except at max level, as you'll run into a boss you can't do any damage to if you try. I suspect that Ys 1 may be this way as well.
* Soft level gates. You're not going to complete Dragon Warrior 1 below level 17 without cheating or heavy RNG manipulation, and even with TAS-level RNG manipulation, beating the game below level 7 is provably impossible (unless there's some undiscovered glitch). (Also worth noting that the no-manip speedrun is something like over 4 hours. \Iif someone beat the game in under an hour, that run used RNG manipulation; the AGDQ run of this game is no exception.)

By the way, FF9's Ozma can be defeated at level 1; you just need to go out of your way to avoid XP (petrifying enemies instead of killing them, for example), get the right setup, and get lucky during the actual fight.

(It can be interesting to contrast FF9 Ozma and FF10 Penance; the Ozma fight is short and very RNG-heavy, while the Penance fight takes a very long time, but if you know what you're doing, there's no risk of failure.)
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: Playing on level 1 (self-imposed but provided by the game) also creates a very different experience, requiring the player to understand the game and enemy moves to survive.
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dtgreene: Thing is, not all games with XP leveling admit such a challenge, for various reasons:
* Mandatory XP with automatic level ups. Essentially, even if you're actively trying to avoid XP (which can be a pain), you are going to gain some levels.
* Hard level gates. Crystalis (NES), for example, literally can't be cleared except at max level, as you'll run into a boss you can't do any damage to if you try. I suspect that Ys 1 may be this way as well.
* Soft level gates. You're not going to complete Dragon Warrior 1 below level 17 without cheating or heavy RNG manipulation, and even with TAS-level RNG manipulation, beating the game below level 7 is provably impossible (unless there's some undiscovered glitch). (Also worth noting that the no-manip speedrun is something like over 4 hours. \Iif someone beat the game in under an hour, that run used RNG manipulation; the AGDQ run of this game is no exception.)

By the way, FF9's Ozma can be defeated at level 1; you just need to go out of your way to avoid XP (petrifying enemies instead of killing them, for example), get the right setup, and get lucky during the actual fight.

(It can be interesting to contrast FF9 Ozma and FF10 Penance; the Ozma fight is short and very RNG-heavy, while the Penance fight takes a very long time, but if you know what you're doing, there's no risk of failure.)
The KH2 level up system is different which is why it works for a lv 1 run.

KH2 has 2 different level up systems: levels from bosses and levels from grinding/exp. Level ups from bosses dont give a number (so you remain lv 1) but you get more health, mp, and offensive abilities so your character gets stronger. Lv up through grinding improves stats and unlocks some supportive abilities. So while you still get stronger throughout the game, you still remain level 1. In response to your concerns:

* Mandatory XP with automatic level ups
You start off the game with an ability called EXP Zero which basically negates all Exp (gained from killing random enemies). You can kill all you want, you dont gain any Exp.

* Hard level gates
KH2 has damage scaling where if your stats are too far below the minimum floor, you automatically do a set amount of damage based on the attack so you are never in any danger of doing only chip damage. This unfortunately has not been carried over well to future iterations of the game (BBS, 3)

* Soft level gates
Again solved with the EXP Zero ability mentioned above.

The challenge from an Exp Zero really comes from losing access to two key abilities that save a player's bacon: Last Chance and Once more. These are abilities gained through levelling up and basically allow your character to survive an attack or combo at 1 HP if you are above 1 HP and get hit with an attack that would kill you. Players would technically be able to "ride out" deadly combos by being juggled to death by the enemy, letting their character get tossed around at 1 HP before using cure to recover and continue fighting. Removing this (and being at Lv 1) really makes the player need to know how the boss works and even possibly do a "no hit" run to win (these are optional superbosses though).

I do agree that this system does not necessarily translate well to other games and also dont think that Lv 1 self-imposed challenges are always the way to go for a fun game. Im just bringing it up for KH2 as an example of a challenging change in difficulty level done right. I can unfortunately name plenty more of this done wrong (like FF8 which actually makes the game easier and just focus on grinding for stone and managing Exp gain).
Necroing this (over) one year old thread but this was the newest thread I found on the subject...

I was just reminded of this subject yesterday when I realized that "Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain" that I finished two days ago, and "Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver" that I started playing yesterday... don't have user-selected difficulty levels at all! (as don't the Magic Carpet games, Dungeon Keeper, Super Mario Bros games etc.).

Yet, I don't think I've seen people complaining that those said games are generally too easy or too hard because you can't select an easier or harder difficulty level yourself. I think they are just designed so well that they don't need different difficulty levels, and still can offer interesting gameplay to people with different skill levels.

As I have said in other similar threads, I'd prefer if games didn't have different difficulty levels that you have to choose when you start the game, but instead the game was designed so that you can compensate for your lack of skill or luck or whatever by changing your gameplay style, or whatever.

I've mentioned my reasons to oppose difficulty levels, like:

1. They promote sloppy game design and sloppy game testing, like the "wrong" ways of handling different difficulty levels that have been discussed in this thread as well, or not playtesting the different difficulty levels properly whether they are manageable at all because you can always tell the players "Well, if you can't handle it, maybe you should just choose an easier difficulty level?". Forsaken, Tie Fighter and Descent: Freespace, I am looking at you.

2. If you have to choose the difficulty level before you start playing the game (and can't change in afterwards without restarting the whole game from the start), how do you know what is the correct difficulty level for you? Sometimes the hardest difficulty level may feel easy peasy, sometimes the medium or even easier might feel too hard. It is just total guessing as there are no norms what exactly an easy or hard difficulty level means in practice in different games. The game developer just decides it themselves, like slapping the enemies 2x hit points and call it the hard mode.

3. Even if you can change the difficulty level while playing the game... to me that doesn't really feel different from enabling cheats or enabling a godmode to pass the hard parts of the game. In one very hard Tie Fighter expansion pack mission, which I had tried to finish probably several hundred times unsuccessfully, I finally changed the difficulty level to the easiest, just so that I can pass that one ultrahard mission, and move on with the rest of the game, cranking up the difficulty level again.

4. Auto-difficulty levels which try to change the difficulty level dynamically while you play, based on how well you play... I oppose those too as they basically penalize you for playing better, so basically it might make sense to you to sometimes play poorly on purpose?

EDIT: Which reminds me... maybe I will start a new thread about this?
Post edited October 24, 2023 by timppu
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timppu: 2. If you have to choose the difficulty level before you start playing the game (and can't change in afterwards without restarting the whole game from the start), how do you know what is the correct difficulty level for you? Sometimes the hardest difficulty level may feel easy peasy, sometimes the medium or even easier might feel too hard. It is just total guessing as there are no norms what exactly an easy or hard difficulty level means in practice in different games. The game developer just decides it themselves, like slapping the enemies 2x hit points and call it the hard mode.
Yeah, with some games, when they don't tell you what they do, it can be a crapshoot. Shattered Steel for example doubles all enemy spawns on the hardest difficulty. This can make some levels literally impossible. There is a level where you can't even reach a convoy you are supposed to protect before it gets overrun and annihilated. After many failed attempts, I restarted the game on a difficulty below hardest and was very surprised, finding out there are 50% less enemies everywhere.

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timppu: 4. Auto-difficulty levels which try to change the difficulty level dynamically while you play, based on how well you play... I oppose those too as they basically penalize you for playing better, so basically it might make sense to you to sometimes play poorly on purpose?
This indeed sucks. Especially fighting games like doing this a lot, where after 3-5 losses, the AI just suddenly becomes dumber. Racing games are also a frequent culprit, where opponents slow down if they get too far ahead of you or speed up if you gain too much of a lead.
Post edited October 24, 2023 by idbeholdME