myconv: […]
Note: You may notice in that last paragraph I put ' around 'rightful' each time since all 'royal bloodlines' start with someone taking power with violence. No royalty is ever truly 'rightful' and the concept itself is sickening.
[…]
scientiae: False. The Anglo-Saxon aristocrats, for one example, elected their monarch from their peers.
What if they were called a Chairman instead of King or Queen?
That isn't different though, how did those aristocrats get their family power originally and maintain their power if not through violence and threat of violence? And not only do they elect the monarch from their own ranks of most likely ill-begotten power somewhere in the family tree, by your own words they can only elect from their own. They could not elect a commoner with a chain of hard working leaders in their family tree if they wanted to.
It doesn't matter if you change the name, a Chairman of a company that got there likely because of connections and rich family or personal ill-begotten wealth and connections is just aristocracy and nobility with a make over and better disguise. Well not quite as bad as the direct violence of feudalism of the past but still bad.
myconv: […] That's […] the capitalist propaganda that says we can't do better than capitalism and humans by nature need to be controlled by 'elites' […]
scientiae: There are elites in Soviet and Chinese communism; it is not a capitalist trope. The difference between the two systems is that Socialists have succumbed to what Thomas Sowell (
Social Justice Fallacies, 2023) called the
Chessmaster fallacy, whereas Capitalism respects the merit of the market to adjudicate fate.
First you start with the
"what about-ism" fallacy. I am no fan of Stalin or Mao nor do I think what they implemented was socialist or communist in nature. But even if I was a tanky who believed it was purely the circumstances of the situations plus false proganda and further pointed out the many capitalist nations today who are essentially failed states in terrible condition because of capitalism, all the above would still be beside the point.
The point is a failure of imagination in much storytelling regarding social structures, something a fiction and especially scifi story should be rich in. Rather a dogmatic clinging to the propogandish like pro-capitalist concept that 'capitalism is just the purest expression of human nature and it is simply impossible to do better'. Stories that would more readily imagine travel speed many times faster light or time travel or artificial gravity etc. than imagine something other than capitalism or feudalism.
I looked up your "chessmaster fallacy". It amounts to not seeing reality for what it is, that accusation of yours that my suggesting we can imagine societies that aren't feudalistic or capitalist and yet be successful is immersion breaking unrealistic just contributes to my point instead of refuting it. I didn't bother to look up your "Social justice" fallacy, looks too similar to "social justice warrior" those on the right love to use as a insult.
myconv: […]
Also a side note that idea that some people are just better than others can also be found in other stuff like in many super hero stories.
[…]
scientiae: What do you mean? Surely you are not suggesting that all people are identical in physical prowess, mental acuity, and spiritual or ethical demeanour? Or do you mean that all people should be treated equally under the law? If the latter, I concur. If the former, then you are clearly devoid of a sufficiency of analytical skills married with disinterested desire for empirical truth, otherwise you would see the merit in assessing people as differently abled.
I didn't say that everyone is as good at any one thing as everyone else. But the attitude of the feudalist and capitalist loving apologists is that some people are better than other people, period,
full stop. More important valuable capable beings than those inferior drags of society.
You know that the IQ test which has become synonymous with how intelligent someone is is based on the idea that there are people just smarter than others. And sure there might be some variation where someone is better at something and worse at something else, but generally these more intelligent people are better at everything across the board and the reverse with the "less intelligent" people. Leaving little to no room for the reality that someone can excel at one thing but suck at everything else and so on. Setting aside how bad the IQ test is for measuring ability is, it is based on the extremely flawed capitalist feufalist idea of some people just being better than others.
myconv: […]
Even Startrek is very vague on their utopia future.
[…]
scientiae: Star Trek is set in a post-scarcity milieu.
Maybe "post scarcity" because they got away from capitalism. We currently now have enough food, water etc to provide for the world population and then some. It's not scarcity that leaves some still living in squalid and dying under cruel oppression, it's capitalism.
myconv: That's hardly imagining paradise. How does it work and how did they get there? […]
scientiae: If we could envision a working utopia, Socrates, then surely someone would have created it.
LOL as if, Socrates was no master visionary. And even if xhe was, that wouldn't be relevant.
Let's say you have a task that needs to be done for survival, working a field for crops. Optimal would be both sharing food and working the field together in cooperation. Much less optimal would is if one person did all the work with only a fraction of the portion of the food while the other person just stood by watching for escape and a whip to dole out punishment if the worker didn't work as hard as the master expects.
But if it was practical to not have slavery they would have done it centuries ago. But no one could imagine a world without slavery because it's not practical.
scientiae: I note the complete absence of any postulation from you. What possible utopia could there be?
It is a common practice of right wing leaning person
(which maybe you are not, who knows) to make perfect the enemy of improving things. If you can't get "utopia" and "utopia" is conveniently defined as utterly perfect, then there is no point in improving things at all.
But I could get into great depth regarding better systems for more democracy/equality/freedom. Except this thread is about stories in media lacking imagination in these things, not me personally filling in the gap left by their lack of writer imagination.