Man you have to be insane, I remember finishing it being younger, it took me a while, I had to find a solution to solve the frog thing because I was stuck there A LONG time .... and at the end I was convinced to be mad/insane/crazy because this game does make so little sense, it wasn't a game normal people should be able to complete.


Then hardest game ... it has to be an old Nintendo game in my opinion .... Super Ghouls n' Ghosts, I think ?

Anything that's more than 15 minutes per death is unacceptable for me, and that was the second boss right there. I strongly dislike repetition, and it seemed utterly pointless in Dark Souls as well (no random drops or procedural generation to mix things up, it was just all about muscle memory.)

It should be a thing if you want it to be a thing. Freedom to choose and all that. But DS pretty much got its reputation for it not being a thing, so I guess I'm just not target demographic.

There are random drops. I mean, they're fixed, but they don't always drop. Some drop very rarely.

And those aren't really savepoint per se, you don't "reset" fully after dying - you've got the option to run back where you died and pick up all your souls therefore increasing your soul count and letting you level up more if you're having too tough of a time. Plus, you learn from mistakes which can be avoided by being careful, but no one is used to being careful in games at this point.

The only real challenge about this game is figuring out the weakness of the bosses and that pisses off people, because you can't just waltz right back into the boss fight after you've died. But picking up on weaknesses becomes pretty simple to as you get acquainted with the game. Of course, if you're not good at picking up on weakness, there's always the grind some souls way. Clear an area - run back to the bonfire - spend souls - repeat. But that's no fun.

Yeah, I know, loss of progress is actually not what I have problem with - I have problem with the fact like I feel like the game it completely wasting my time by forcing me to repeat precisely the same efficient route and moves for about 10 minutes or so just so I can finally get to where I died.

Any Simmers here know that DCS (never played it...but hear it's incredibly hard), Dangerous Waters, ArmA, and pretty much anything with a steep learning curve is hard.

Well yeah, La Mulana is one of the hardest game I've played since ten years.
And I must beat Hell Temple yet :|

B-17 Flying Fortress: The Mighty 8th. With keyboard and mouse controls.

If you've died - there's a problem, you fucked up somewhere and that's one of the fun parts, it has consequences. A lot of games lost that and are becoming duller and duller in comparison. DaS/DeS are less forgiving than what we have these days after all. If you can't clear something in here, means you'll have even a more bitch of a time later on and we're not letting you get there until you prove that you're good enough.

This is the same mentality most games have stopped following. You usually no longer have to prove anything, any challenge to a game becomes just sitting there the 10-25 hours the game requires you to. You've been on GOG since 2008, I'm sure you've played your fair share of old games, I think you get this.

Not to mention, if you think that you didn't fuck up and think that you don't have to clear this little area again just to get to the boss - run. You can run over any mobs in the zones and just get straight to the boss. You're not required to bash everyone's head in again.

We've got it too easy, visual novel games with WASD controls are the new wave.

On a side note, whats the 10 hardest modern PC games have people played? (Dark Souls aside)

It's more that you can't "reset and rewind", because as far as "saving" goes, the game constantly saves at any second, so you never run the risk of having to restart from scratch a section.
Also, strictly speaking, those are not "checkpoints", but more like vita chambers in Bioshock; meaning by that, that you are never pushed back in the game by a reload: you retain everything you gained from the previous try.
Those repeated sections to go back to your dying spot are also somewhat beneficial in the long run... you'll end up with a better, stronger character, compared to someone who never dies (unless he grinds deliberately)

Yes, you can actually lose some (not everything) of that progress if you fail twice in a row without recovering, but well... the game is tough, no denying that ;-)

The general difficulty is medium-high, and I agree that it might not warrant a spot on the list... you have to be carefull and learn from your mistakes, but there are, and were especially in the past, plenty of crazy hard games that deserve a top 10 more.

This is the problem I have with Demon's Souls. I played it for like an hour without meeting a single checkpoint. When I was killed, I lost souls. Then I naturally explored environment (no enemies) and killed myself accidentally, again. Gathered souls lost forever.

And when I looked up later where exactly can I save and discovered that it will be a long process, I gave up. I would probably have a bigger patience with the game if I was fifteen-year old and had a lot of time to waste but now I don't see a point. Why bother and prolong the gameplay only by artificial obstacles that throw you to the place you were 15 minutes ago because next save checkpoint is 2 hours of playing away? It doesn't seem to have any solid storytelling, anyway.

As for the link OP posted, I quickly tried the tracker game, the rest is unknown to me. Also, quoted for truth.

My personal hardest game would probably be Nu, Pagadi! :D.

Inclusion of saving != easy game. The game is just as difficult with saving as it is without saving, it just adds a lot of repetition, which is what I can't stand. For example, Devil May Cry 3 - quite a challenging hack and slash, and I have finished it on highest difficulty. So what is the difference between repeating the same section in Dark Souls and in DMC, you ask? Well, Dark Souls is an RPG. As such, when you pick a character, you get a optimal way to play the game, and Dark Souls is one of those games which will punish you for not playing optimally.

Now, why am I bringing this up: When I have died in DMC, it was always because I have fucked up. Every single time. That game could be beaten without getting hit a single time if you have superhuman reflexes. However, when I've had to repeat a section, I could vary things up: Grab different weapons, different combat style, and various combos just kept things interesting.

Not so in Dark Souls. In Dark Souls, you profile your character to be good in specific areas, and specialize on specific equipment. This basically means that when you fuck up, you have to repeat the previous stages precisely as you played them before. When a game is structured like this, I want the ability to just skip right to the bit I have fucked up at so I can find out what I did wrong and fix it - repeating precisely what I did before feels like an unnecessary waste of my time. It just feels tedious, I have been there, I have done precisely that, it's not very entertaining to do it again.

Now we're at the saving vs difficulty bit: You can actually have a game which is difficult and lets you save anywhere. Ideally, and I'm really glad that is the standard nowadays, a game has a combination of checkpoints and manual saving. Some games, like Dishonored, I just don't use quicksaves and rely on autosaves. Others, where I find repetition to be tedious, I use quicksaves. What I dislike is when game designers take this decision away from me.

edit: Now, keep in mind I don't actually want Dark Souls to be different. A lot of people enjoy it for what it is and that's fine.

No one tried Shobon ?
http://youtu.be/lRviZKJIjSw

Not saying that inclusion of saving will always mean an easy game, just a general observation of current games that aren't challenging at all.

And what you're saying is correct in theory, but in practice it only occurs to complete beginners who don't understand the game. That kind of thing just doesn't happen after you've beaten around 3 bosses. Much earlier for some. Unless of course you venture too deep to a place you are not ready for at all, then expect some oneshots. You can still make it through the whole game without leveling up once, but that's more of a challenge run than anything else.

You're comparing a cruaaaahzy action game to a rather slow paced ARPG. In DMC you can just dive in start fucking shit up and the shit you have to fuck up is placed in little rooms, small spaces which can be quickly restarted. While DMC is difficult, there's not much consequence to it. It's arcady. Yeah, you die because you fuck up, but dying means nothing because you jump right back in. That's the way DMC is, a fast paced action game.

The way Dark Souls is - you need to be vigilant and careful, you are almost never going to die if you're smart about the way you approach the game. If you haven't played the game before and you're rushing, you're gonna get punished. There's an actual incentive not to die, unlike in some other games that are also considered hard. It's one type of difficulty where you can just instantly try over and over again until you get a lucky break or actually git gud and it's another type of difficulty where you're trying your best not to die, because dying bears a penalty. This is a simple retro difficulty in a neater, more modern package.

And about these kind of games wasting your time - that's usually how challenging games works, they require dedication beyond the one you give to simpler games.

*

that game... im scared even speak about it