Posted August 10, 2010
lowyhong
resident bff
Registered: Dec 2008
From Singapore
Faithful
Brain Freeze
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
I really like 4x space games; not that I am good at them, but I do enjoy them. :o)
This game looks very good, but I wonder if you can automate a lot of the RTS tasks and focus on only a few areas and have the game still be enjoyable.
Turn based would be better, but before I say I do not want to play it I would like to see a bit more of it.
I am glad there are still a few developers that have kept making this style game.
This game looks very good, but I wonder if you can automate a lot of the RTS tasks and focus on only a few areas and have the game still be enjoyable.
Turn based would be better, but before I say I do not want to play it I would like to see a bit more of it.
I am glad there are still a few developers that have kept making this style game.
Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
Looks nifty. I really like the web-like tech tree. Maybe skip Shields 1 and start with Shields 2 because my research in Lasers 4 already covered that ground. But not sure if I am really in hte mood to grab yet another 4x game, what with the toys coming up.
As for the people complaining about it not being turn-based:
People used to complain that all RPGs had to be turn-based. "We need to be able to think through every action". But those, for the most part, haven't been turn-based in a while.
Frankly, as long as the planetary infrastructure is at a Sins level or higher (just queue up buildings), it isn't a big deal. You'll obviously want to play against easy AI the first few times (if only to learn the interface and how the tech tree works), but after that, it shouldn't require much more thought than playing Supreme Commander.
As for the people complaining about it not being turn-based:
People used to complain that all RPGs had to be turn-based. "We need to be able to think through every action". But those, for the most part, haven't been turn-based in a while.
Frankly, as long as the planetary infrastructure is at a Sins level or higher (just queue up buildings), it isn't a big deal. You'll obviously want to play against easy AI the first few times (if only to learn the interface and how the tech tree works), but after that, it shouldn't require much more thought than playing Supreme Commander.
trusteft
Viceroy
Registered: May 2009
From Greece
Posted August 11, 2010
People used to complain that all RPGs had to be turn-based. "We need to be able to think through every action". But those, for the most part, haven't been turn-based in a while.
Frankly, as long as the planetary infrastructure is at a Sins level or higher (just queue up buildings), it isn't a big deal. You'll obviously want to play against easy AI the first few times (if only to learn the interface and how the tech tree works), but after that, it shouldn't require much more thought than playing Supreme Commander.
Turn based RPGs are still being made, they are just not made by well known publishers. Same for strategy games. Just because you might not know them it doesn't mean they don't exist.
RPGs in real time can exist, depending on the game they can be very good too. That's irrelevant to 4X RTS. You can't have thousands of systems (one of the main point they are making) with who knows how many ships and decisions and keep the RTS formula. Well, you can, but it isn't going to be as good as turn based. Why rush to control everything, why be forced to pause the game, why slow down or speed up the time in the game, all the freaking time, when all of them would be solved by making the game turn based? No, RTS mode for 4X games works only when the size is not large enough. All the other times the publisher/developer just wants to grab as many casual or young players as possible because they are the ones who will grab first games in real time, turn based games for them are not cool enough.
And please don't say that Sins is a proper 4X game. It's a glorified RTS.
Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
People used to complain that all RPGs had to be turn-based. "We need to be able to think through every action". But those, for the most part, haven't been turn-based in a while.
Frankly, as long as the planetary infrastructure is at a Sins level or higher (just queue up buildings), it isn't a big deal. You'll obviously want to play against easy AI the first few times (if only to learn the interface and how the tech tree works), but after that, it shouldn't require much more thought than playing Supreme Commander.
RPGs in real time can exist, depending on the game they can be very good too. That's irrelevant to 4X RTS. You can't have thousands of systems (one of the main point they are making) with who knows how many ships and decisions and keep the RTS formula. Well, you can, but it isn't going to be as good as turn based. Why rush to control everything, why be forced to pause the game, why slow down or speed up the time in the game, all the freaking time, when all of them would be solved by making the game turn based? No, RTS mode for 4X games works only when the size is not large enough. All the other times the publisher/developer just wants to grab as many casual or young players as possible because they are the ones who will grab first games in real time, turn based games for them are not cool enough.
And please don't say that Sins is a proper 4X game. It's a glorified RTS.
Thought that saying "for the most part" implied the majority, but not all of them.
A "thousands of systems" 4x could work in real-time, quite easily.
Handle system improvements with a Sins-style system (or even more high-level) by just saying "I want four labs and two factories in this system" or even just saying "I want this system to research, and that one to manufacture". Problem solved. Then you just use a GalCiv2 style auto-improvement scheme. Maybe Sins wasn't a "proper" 4x (arguable), but no reason they can't take inspiration.
As for battles: As long as the AI is competent, this isn't a big deal. Obviously it would be closer to Supreme Commander than Dawn of War (build lots of units, take direct control over crucial battles), but it could work. Would need to learn how to auto-queue and manufacture stuff (or set a garrison strength setting in a system). Not my cup of tea, but it is doable (and people liked it).
Hell, this would even add another layer to the game. Engaging in war against everyone else is a bad idea, even if you have manufacturing capabilities. You just don't have the manpower/brainpower/time to deal with a twenty front war.
Your problem is that you are thinking a real-time Masters of Orion or Space Empires. That wouldn't work, the same way a real-tiime Final Fantasy Tactics (or anything else in that genre of turn-based tactical) won't work. But look at games like Baldurs Gate: They got the real-time working. And that evolved even further with NWN and even Dragon Age, where you just don't need to pause every five seconds.
Yes, a "classic" 4x game isn't going to work in real-time. But who cares? If you want a classic 4x game, go play Space Empires or MOO2 (or GalCiv 2). Hell, Space Empires 6 is probably on its way. But there is nothing in the underlying concept of the genre that can't be adapted to rael-time.
shadearg
In da fresh.
Registered: Jan 2010
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
Thanks for the heads up on this, Aliasalpha. I pre-ordered immediately after reading through your links.
lowyhong
resident bff
Registered: Dec 2008
From Singapore
Posted August 11, 2010
You are now making arguments that have absolutely no basis apart from your own conjectures, towards a game that you have not even played at all, and to it's audience, since I am neither a casual player nor a very young (somewhat) player, having played turn-based games since the glory days of SSI and Microprose.
If you want to rant, at least do so out of validated reason, rather than your own subjective preferences.
Faithful
Brain Freeze
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
Well, back on topic. I went ahead and pre-ordered the game from GG. DRM free, 4x space game is a good thing.
Wolfox
Gdfsgsdfhgsdfghs
Registered: Sep 2008
From Brazil
Faithful
Brain Freeze
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
Nice. :o)
Not sure when it is due out but I am the type that would much rather wait and have a finished product than rush something out the door full of bugs.
Wolfox
Gdfsgsdfhgsdfghs
Registered: Sep 2008
From Brazil
Posted August 11, 2010
Not sure when it is due out but I am the type that would much rather wait and have a finished product than rush something out the door full of bugs.
Scheduled release date is August 21st, but it looks like this title will have some significant post-release support, so I would consider the initial version to be a "late beta", so to speak.
And I pre-ordered too, which makes the 21-28 week even busier for me - Star Ruler, Elemental, Worms Reloaded... gaming bliss. :-)
lowyhong
resident bff
Registered: Dec 2008
From Singapore
Faithful
Brain Freeze
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
Who knows, when it comes out maybe it will have a workable multilplayer to put some time in together.
Although, as I said, I am not very good at these games but enjoy them immensely just the same. In other words I would be the handicap, the last kid picked for the team, you know, that sort of thing! :o)
Although, as I said, I am not very good at these games but enjoy them immensely just the same. In other words I would be the handicap, the last kid picked for the team, you know, that sort of thing! :o)
orcishgamer
Mad and Green
Registered: Jun 2010
From United States
Posted August 11, 2010
RPGs in real time can exist, depending on the game they can be very good too. That's irrelevant to 4X RTS. You can't have thousands of systems (one of the main point they are making) with who knows how many ships and decisions and keep the RTS formula. Well, you can, but it isn't going to be as good as turn based. Why rush to control everything, why be forced to pause the game, why slow down or speed up the time in the game, all the freaking time, when all of them would be solved by making the game turn based? No, RTS mode for 4X games works only when the size is not large enough. All the other times the publisher/developer just wants to grab as many casual or young players as possible because they are the ones who will grab first games in real time, turn based games for them are not cool enough.
And please don't say that Sins is a proper 4X game. It's a glorified RTS.
A "thousands of systems" 4x could work in real-time, quite easily.
Handle system improvements with a Sins-style system (or even more high-level) by just saying "I want four labs and two factories in this system" or even just saying "I want this system to research, and that one to manufacture". Problem solved. Then you just use a GalCiv2 style auto-improvement scheme. Maybe Sins wasn't a "proper" 4x (arguable), but no reason they can't take inspiration.
As for battles: As long as the AI is competent, this isn't a big deal. Obviously it would be closer to Supreme Commander than Dawn of War (build lots of units, take direct control over crucial battles), but it could work. Would need to learn how to auto-queue and manufacture stuff (or set a garrison strength setting in a system). Not my cup of tea, but it is doable (and people liked it).
Hell, this would even add another layer to the game. Engaging in war against everyone else is a bad idea, even if you have manufacturing capabilities. You just don't have the manpower/brainpower/time to deal with a twenty front war.
Your problem is that you are thinking a real-time Masters of Orion or Space Empires. That wouldn't work, the same way a real-tiime Final Fantasy Tactics (or anything else in that genre of turn-based tactical) won't work. But look at games like Baldurs Gate: They got the real-time working. And that evolved even further with NWN and even Dragon Age, where you just don't need to pause every five seconds.
Yes, a "classic" 4x game isn't going to work in real-time. But who cares? If you want a classic 4x game, go play Space Empires or MOO2 (or GalCiv 2). Hell, Space Empires 6 is probably on its way. But there is nothing in the underlying concept of the genre that can't be adapted to rael-time.
I'm with Gundato on this one. Evolving a genre may turn out well or poorly, but in itself is neither good nor bad. My preference is not to play an exact clone of MoO2, however, but something that has its same charm. I won't discount an evolution of the genre from the list of possibilities, it might even be better!
trusteft
Viceroy
Registered: May 2009
From Greece
Posted August 12, 2010
If you want to rant, at least do so out of validated reason, rather than your own subjective preferences.
Yes, I make arguments based on what I know, what I believe and what I feel. I don't know any other way unless I am acting or pretending for some other reason.
While I haven't played this game, the game mechanics are not exactly breaking new. Since you are not brand new, you know that this game is not the first 4X game, not the first real time strategy game and not the first real time 4X game.
It's plain logic. If you have a real time 4X game with a huge number of parameters, you will have to, even if not at the start of the game, keep pausing the game or changing the time passing, at least if you want to have any chance of winning and/or you are not playing on the easiest level or the AI is not a joke. Since I have no reason to believe the AI is going to be bad and a cakewalk, I have to proceed based on knowledge from all the previous games.
Now, you might not like it, but that is entirely your problem, that I speak against the use of real time mechanics in a 4X game and that I would rather have this game as a turn based one than real time.
I prefer to choose how I play, how I command my units/ships, planets, etc on my own pace, clicking end turn and knowing that I don't have to be on the look out to press on the pause or slow down button, ie have good reflex to not ruin or damage my game/empire/etc.
I prefer in a strategy game of this scope to be able to do well or bad depending on my strategy (and tactics where applicable), and not the second or even minute I clicked on whatever.
Nothing of course is going to change the game, since it is what it is, but as you and anyone else has the right or privilege to write their own opinion, so do I. I hope I am understood.