serpantino: I've never understood how people can be so utterly delusional as to think that a God they push as being so full of 'love' is so riddled with phobias about the activities, beliefs and sexual orientation of his own creation.

TStael: now it is too late to dance upon his grave as it is meaningless.

DireRabbit: As horrible a person as Fred Phelps was, I have to thank him.

Thank him because his "church's" extreme views have done more to help gay rights in this country than anything else. Many people who were ambivalent about gay marriage, or even against, began to support it because of the extreme hatred this group showed.

Thank him because his demonstrations brought out the best in humanity. Look at pictures of his protests. Look at the number of people who showed up to support the grieving families and protect them from the protesters. People from all walks of life turned up to demonstrate that there is still some good left in humanity.

So, thank you Fred Phelps. Thank you.

Telika: Is the world a bit better when such individuals do not exist ?

I'd say probably, yes. He did strongly embody some major elements that make this world an uselessly, arbitrarily difficult place for a lot of decent, innocent people. And he was pulling the world in a direction making it worse.

This can often be questionned, in ideologies (for instance it's an accusation often thrown at each others, in good faith, by those who believe in the ultracapitalistic or the socialist models), but i'd say that here we have quite a clear cut objective case of what's the most wrong on earth. Bigoted homophobic, racist or sexist intolerance drags society backwards by encouraging undue hostilities and oppositions, and it's good whenever one of its more vocal and nasty proponents shuts up.

There, technically.

DireRabbit: snip

IAmSinistar: snip

I think the celebratory wake is a much better reply to death than a grim funeral. Death is inevitable, why shouldn't we mark it with a revel over all the joy and delight that the person brought to us? I know that when my time comes I'd much rather people be taking merry fellowship than brooding like a parliament of rooks. And those I know who died would, I feel, have wanted the same. I don't want to be a person who desires others to be miserable at his death, that just seems too self-important somehow.

amok: Boy, was this ever posted in the wrong thread.

Ever wanted to delete own forum post? Vote for it here -http://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/delete_own_forum_post

HypersomniacLive: The reason we cry and grieve is not because the diseased wants us to, and I don't think that we do it over their demise or with their fate in mind. IMHO, It's a way of expressing our pain and inability (often even unwillingness) to deal with the fact that a certain beloved person will no longer be part of our daily lives in a physical way, we grieve because we won't be able to interact and share moments of our lives with that person ever again, we shed tears because their demise leaves a big empty spot in our lives that we can't fill. Sometimes, there's even some guilt in the mix and the knowledge that one won't ever have a chance to do right by that person can be pretty heavy.

Essentially, we grieve over ourselves, over the state their demise leaves us, not them; yes, it is rather selfish, but it's a reaction born on a subconscious level and one probably doesn't even realise it unless they give it some serious thought, still it's part of human nature and I don't condemn it.

IAmSinistar: Exactly so. And I do not begrudge anyone the period of mourning that follows a death. I go through that myself. It is natural, healthy, and as you say, has as much to do with our own feelings of loss as it does with empathy for those gone.

I can understand this grief being resurgent at a funeral as well, since seeing others triggers more memories of the deceased and makes the loss even keener.

My stance on the celebratory wake is that it should come once the primary grieving is done, much of which has already happened in private before the gathering. A wake enables people to find strength in each other and begin the process of resuming living. It also celebrates those who have passed, and helps us keep them alive in our memories, by giving us a final experience of them that is not centered on death, but on the connections and impacts they made on everyone around us in life.