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HypersomniacLive: How do you define "primary" grieving? And what's the measure for "much of which"?
Both are touching on that initial, visceral grieving that comes right after the death. The almost animal, unreasoning grief that is all-consuming and inconsolable. This eventually gives way to a different kind of grief, the kind which will stay with you the rest of your life but which is of a different timbre. See "the five stages of mourning" for how the process typically unfolds. The wake I see as beginning the process of shepherding people into the last of those stages.

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HypersomniacLive: Either way, even the wake is more about and for the living and the dead.
Of course the wake is more for than the living than the dead. All of these processes are, whether they are a funeral or a celebration or some other social ritual. The dead want for nothing.
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Telika: This can often be questionned, in ideologies (for instance it's an accusation often thrown at each others, in good faith, by those who believe in the ultracapitalistic or the socialist models), but i'd say that here we have quite a clear cut objective case of what's the most wrong on earth. Bigoted homophobic, racist or sexist intolerance drags society backwards by encouraging undue hostilities and oppositions, and it's good whenever one of its more vocal and nasty proponents shuts up.
The funny thing is that his legal career focused on cases striving to bring about racial equality. It would be easy to pigeon-hole him for the anti-gay stuff but that's just one part of the story. Not disagreeing with you, but pointing out the disparity of civil rights between different ethnic groups versus civil rights of differing sexualities, especially from one active in civil rights and the legal system.

Interesting history of the guy.

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While I really disagree with the manner in which he (and the "church") put out its anti-gay message (and the message itself), my feeling is that overall his actions were a good thing for humanity: the peaceful counter-protests, the discussions it started, etc.

A bit torn on this one. Ofttimes it takes a bad thing to bring out the good in others.
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amok: Boy, was this ever posted in the wrong thread.

Ever wanted to delete own forum post? Vote for it here -http://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/delete_own_forum_post
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tinyE: I'm tempted to want to delete this thread. :D However it seems to have given an avenue for some people to vent on this subject so in that regard I guess it was worth it. I just hope it doesn't effect the way people treat each other in the rest of the forum.
I will only say one thing - Scroll of Resurrection!
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IAmSinistar: Both are touching on that initial, visceral grieving that comes right after the death. The almost animal, unreasoning grief that is all-consuming and inconsolable. This eventually gives way to a different kind of grief, the kind which will stay with you the rest of your life but which is of a different timbre. See "the five stages of mourning" for how the process typically unfolds. The wake I see as beginning the process of shepherding people into the last of those stages.

Of course the wake is more for than the living than the dead. All of these processes are, whether they are a funeral or a celebration or some other social ritual. The dead want for nothing.
I'm sadly too well aware of the five stages of mourning. The time and ways to process and cope with all the feelings of the first stages varies from individual to individual (not to mention that the actual relationship they had with the demise also plays a big role) and I think that the wake takes place way too soon for it to function the way you describe it at least for a number of people, and that's why wakes are usually a bit grim. Commemoration gatherings hold a few months or a year later usually offer a better opportunity and premise for people to (re)act in the way you mention.
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HypersomniacLive: I'm sadly too well aware of the five stages of mourning. The time and ways to process and cope with all the feelings of the first stages varies from individual to individual (not to mention that the actual relationship they had with the demise also plays a big role) and I think that the wake takes place way too soon for it to function the way you describe it at least for a number of people, and that's why wakes are usually a bit grim. Commemoration gatherings hold a few months or a year later usually offer a better opportunity and premise for people to (re)act in the way you mention.
True enough, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. The timescale is also affected by how much time you have to prepare for the death in question. My step-father was diagnosed with aggressive and metastasised cancer more than a year before his death, so the process began for us then.

My personal inclination is to prefer a wake, but everyone must decide for themselves what is the appropriate response in each case. This is not a thing that has one right answer.
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IAmSinistar: True enough, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. The timescale is also affected by how much time you have to prepare for the death in question. My step-father was diagnosed with aggressive and metastasised cancer more than a year before his death, so the process began for us then.

My personal inclination is to prefer a wake, but everyone must decide for themselves what is the appropriate response in each case. This is not a thing that has one right answer.
So true.
Reaction by the Empire State Building
Now that is the way to handle this! Makes me feel like a real asshole for being so mean spirited and childish...that is waaaay cool. :D +1 for the link.

BTW While the Empire State Building does actually light up like that they haven't done it in a while thus that pic really doesn't have anything to do with Mr Phelps, but it is still beautiful.
Post edited March 21, 2014 by tinyE
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tinyE: Last time I made a thread celebrating the loss of someone (who was a serial killer no less) I got shit beyond shit beyond shit. I certainly don't want to come off as disrespectful but this is a tough one!

Fred Phelps, founder of the Westboro Baptist Church just died.

Forgive, but I'm dancing here. I'm laughing and dancing and laughing some more. No matter what else happens to me today, it will still be a good day.

Let my derepping commence, it won't bring me down. You can't bring me down, not today! :D Fred is dead! Wonder how his family is going to feel when people show up to picket his funeral?
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Spartan717: Just being curious, why are you happy about this?
Because hes a scumbag by any rational pesons barometer.
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Cormoran: We lost a true Christian today.

So many "Christians" pick and choose what they'd like to believe from the Bible so they can feel good about themselves and live an easy life. He took the high road and, whether it made hated or not, did his best to follow the teachings in that book.

Enjoy heaven, Fred. You're one of the few that deserve it.
Um... wasn't he picking and choosing the "hate"? What does that tell you about him?

"Easy life" - ?? The only people who seem to have an easy life are those who lie, cheat, seek power over others, and make money from the hard work of others. Saying "I choose to follow Jesus" does not automatically grant anyone an "easy" life.
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monkeydelarge: This was my first impression of Fred Phelps. A man who wants his god's love to be worth something and not something cheap for everyone to enjoy because it would be unfair for him if his god loved him no more than everyone else.
I've seen this idea mentioned a few times here, and it boggles the mind. I'm amazed that some people think that God's love is "not worth anything" if everybody gets it. Why is the idea that God loving everybody is "unfair"? "God loves me more; therefore, I'm better than you." Sounds like a human characteristic projected onto God.
Post edited March 21, 2014 by DieRuhe
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Cormoran: We lost a true Christian today.

So many "Christians" pick and choose what they'd like to believe from the Bible so they can feel good about themselves and live an easy life. He took the high road and, whether it made hated or not, did his best to follow the teachings in that book.

Enjoy heaven, Fred. You're one of the few that deserve it.
I realize your simply trying to be overly antagonistic here, but clearly you have never read The Bible. While the old testament is full of "God is a vengeful God" badness, there is a fairly significant second part... You know, what Christianity is based on.

And before everyone explodes into some religion rant, I myself do not practice any religion and have no feeling on this other than get the facts straight instead of take cheap shots on a day we should all be pleased this clown has gone to the bigtop in the sky.
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Cormoran:
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muttly13: And before everyone explodes into some religion rant,
If this turns into a religious rant I will be forced to post my picture of a mouse committing necrophilia. You have been warned! :D
Post edited March 21, 2014 by tinyE
To my knowledge he just spewed hateful ideology. I won't dance on someone's grave for that. I was cheering when they shot Bin Laden though.
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tinyE: If this turns into a religious rant I will be forced to post my picture of a mouse committing necrophilia. You have been warned! :D
Please, stay on topic :) Here's a nicer picture :)
Attachments:
fred.jpg (192 Kb)
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tinyE: If this turns into a religious rant I will be forced to post my picture of a mouse committing necrophilia. You have been warned! :D
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Novotnus: Please, stay on topic :) Here's a nicer picture :)
When I was looking up Mr Phelps the other day I found a picture of someone photobombing one of his marches with an "God Hates Signs" sign. No word on if he was dragged away and beaten after the pic was taken.