No... I didn't imply that... oh wait, I did :-)

That's some seriously big balls you have there.

Honestly, I cannot understand when people complain about save game anytime anywhere, especially in a single player game. In such case, it is up to each gamer how they want to enjoy the game, whether they want to save periodically and regularly every few minutes, or whether they want to save scumming, or whether they do not want to use the quicksave, etc. Especially in single player games, when what one does surely does not affect others in any way? Why forcing others, to play games they way you want to play?

Anyway, not looking into a debate here, even when it is Saturday morning here I still have to work (meaning I cannot play games right now, heck I am not even supposed to be typing in this forum, I'm supposed to be working). No offence to anybody. Certainly I do not intend to insult anyway, hence the emoticon :-D and :-) above.

It's not that some people like challenges and others don't, it's just that their definiton of what a real challenge consists of seems to differ significantly.

Just because you think know what you're doing doesn't automatically mean it will work, and even if it would, if making one small mistake in the process throws you back several minutes again and next time you might get unlucky again, despite your good strategy and you'll have to repeat all the tedious stuff that leads to this difficult spot, that's just no fun. But yeah, it sounds like we don't share the same experience with games, so I guess it's rather pointless for me to try and get my point across. Doesn't really matter anyway, I'm off to bed now. :)

I am not saying anyone should play the game exactly like how I like to play, I am saying what I said above.

But whatever, man, you have better things to do, right :D

True, sometimes you have to try several things before something works, but I think that's part of the challenge as well. Lol, I guess we just value difficulty in different ways.

But of course, there are "real" challenges and fake ones, I guess, haha.

Ok, I'll give it one more try before despairing of my apparant failure at communication. ;)

I'm pretty sure we're talking at cross purposes here. Trying several things before something works is an interesting challenge to me, too. Doing the same things to get there is not. Imagine a game where you play through a level that is fun the first time but it hasn't much replay value because it's linear and there isn't much opportunity for variation the next time you play it. You'll just do exactly what you did the first time because that's how it works and how it's supposed to work. Now imagine you suddenly come across a diffcult spot in that level, and you don't know yet how to deal with it. You need to try several things, like you suggested. And now imagine that if you fail, you have to start at the beginning of the level again and repeat everything up to this point in order to try something else. To me, trying to deal with the diffcult spot is a challenge, repeating the whole level to get another chance at dealing with the difficult spot is not - it's just a severe punishment for failure.

Is this something you would enjoy and find challenging? When trying different strategies to deal with one single spot always involves repeating the whole level? For the sake of the argument, let's pretend you have no difficulties in replaying the level up to that difficult spot, but it takes half an hour to get there again. Would you enjoy doing it several times to try different approaches?

To me that would indeed be a "fake" challenge, if I only have difficulties with that last spot but need to repeat the whole level for it. That's 95% boredom for 5% challenge at the end. But YMMV.

When I posted my post above, I did not even target it at you, I was just thinking out loud, so it was not directed particularly at anyone at all. In fact I was just re-reading some of the posts in the first page (my setting in this forum is to show 50 posts per page). I believe your discussions with Leroux started on the second page, and I actually hadn't read your posts when I posted above.

I often come across some discussions in other threads or in certain sub forums here, whereby people complain about save game anytime anywhere. That was why I posted what I said above.

Yeah, you're both right.

None of that makes any sense at all.

I'm not so sure. Leroux's point seems to be that badly placed checkpoints are bad, which is true of course, but doesn't really target anything you said, while tarangwydion is simply away with the fairies.

Leroux, the reason for why he fails to pick up on our "long, easy stretches" thing is probably that he doesn't seem to like "long, easy stretches" to begin with. Which is perfectly valid, of course. I'm a bit bewildered by this whole fucking thing, too.

Leroux has explained my feelings very well re this subject and too, tarangwydion. Metro 2033 has the kind of checkpoints that I like. When I fail and die, I'm taken back to where the failure occurred and I have another go to try a different strategy. That kind of challenge is fun for me and I'll keep trying different methods til I get it right. Alone in the Dark The New Nightmare has one of those long stretches between checkpoints. I start, find collectibles, figure out how to escape from the dogs, which way to go, more dogs and this scenario continues. Meanwhile, I've died a few times til I have gotten it right, the game moves on and when I next die, I'm taken back to the very beginning to do the entire thing over again which by now I've achieved and there is only one way to do it. With Penumbra, you get to "have another go", but the game changes, so the challenge is different and I feel that is fun.

We don't all like the same games or same genres and we have different reasons for choosing them. And that's as it should be.

ETA: The thread was intended as a light-hearted discussion and there have been some laughs and chuckles. It was never meant to be an argument of right or wrong.

I've prematurely uninstalled numerous games due to frequent deaths and/or stupid auto-saves.

I can also add any games with a time limit against a quest > Thief 2 had a quest that involved snooping at some church within a specified time (I can't be specific as it was a while ago) and that was the final straw for the whole series.

In addition, here's a list of recent-ish games that I've not completed where frustration (due to dying/auto saves) outweighed enjoyment:

- RAGE 3
- Brutal Legend
- Legend of Grimrock
- Psychonauts
- POP WW
- Tomb Raider1 & 2 and consequently didn't bother with 3

Actually, in Eavesdropping (that Thief 2 level), the "time" was up as soon as you made it to the right door. The game was rigged so you would make it there at the right time no matter what.

Go back and try it and see how it goes.

Oh,oh...I have Legend of Grimrock and the Tomb Raiders. A friend says the Tomb Raiders are her favs, so I said I'd play them along with her. Yes, the timed sequences can be a problem. I also have the Thief series. :)
That's good to know. Glad you pointed it out. I've run into that in a few other games. LOL

Gamers should punished for dying, imo. Don't want to repeat a section of the game? Stop sucking. Simple as that. Gamers today have become soft, it is sad. The idea that death should have no consequence is absurd.

Of course, there is a difference between a death that is the fault of the player and a death that is the fault of the developer (i.e. poor design decisions and bugs). The latter is always unacceptable, regardless of the save system.

That makes perfect sense to me. That it can go from "perfect sense" in one person to "no sense at all" in another is a pretty big variance. Now, to agree with it or not - that is a different thing (I mostly do agree with it). Goes to show how everyone is different, I suppose.