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Paingiver: snip
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Siannah: snip

I'll stand on my point of view: to actually do something against further and more DRM, don't pirate and pay for what you play.
Buying a game despite unacceptable DRM says "This DRM is okay. We as consumers will accept this."

Also, see below.

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ddmuse: Yet Bethesda still pissed on fans by forcing Steam with Skyrim. It's not about protecting the product. It's about killing the second-hand market.
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Siannah: Sources besides your (obvious) opinions? I have yet to see Bethesda stating about the second-hand market being a problem. We heard so from EA and what not, but the closest to Bethesda I could pin, was Obsidians Chris Avellone stating on F:NV.
Here's the (obvious) point that you missed: As indicated by the quoted sales information, fans did exactly what you suggest above; they bought the game rather than pirating it, producing fantastic sales for Bethesda.

Yet Bethesda still moved to online-DRM. As Paingiver mentions (and you concede), DRM has little to no effect on pirates. Thus the intuitive leap is that such DRM must have another aim, namely preventing secondhand sales.

Perhaps Bethesda hasn't outright stated such, but I wouldn't expect such a statement given the negative publicity similar statements have caused.

Yes, there is some supposition involved, but no more than in your stories attributing developers going out of business to piracy. Read any of the dozens of threads about these issues on these forums if you still don't get it; I'm not interested in repeating those debates yet again at the present time (better things to do).

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ddmuse: transparency
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Siannah: That's.... mindboggling... epic.... ridiculousness.

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Transparency is quite useful in both government and business. Information is key to any meaningful debate: Perhaps debating the social and economic dimensions of copyright, piracy, etc wouldn't involve so many suppositions if we had hard data to examine. Transparency is also good for investors.

Now, I'm all for limited government, so I'm open to being convinced that transparency is somehow a bad thing (tho it's somewhat off-topic here; you can PM if you like).

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Siannah: The point is, the publishers / devs don't have to prove they trust us gamers that we don't pirate their work. It's us gamers who have to earn that trust back. And I don't see this happening, not even with The Witcher 2.
So we're criminals until we prove our innocence? Fantastic. What's it going to take to win that trust back? Selling over 3 million copies of Oblivion within a year's time wasn't enough for Bethesda. No matter how many sales are made, there will be a cry of "MOAR!" and a push for stronger DRM. This despite the obvious failure of DRM to prevent piracy and the fallacy of equating each pirated copy with a lost sale (see other threads; again, not interested in repeating every detail of this same debate over again).
Post edited February 10, 2012 by ddmuse
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Siannah: I'll stand on my point of view: to actually do something against further and more DRM, don't pirate and pay for what you play.
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ddmuse: Buying a game despite unacceptable DRM says "This DRM is okay. We as consumers will accept this."
Yes, that's correct. However, nobody's forcing you to actually buy. Nobody claimed that you need Skyrim. It's not anymore (if it ever was) that you don't have alternatives, where you can spend your money instead.
If you still want this particular title and see Steam as unacceptable, you could get it for a console without Steam (if the DRM used there is better, is another story).

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Siannah: Sources besides your (obvious) opinions? I have yet to see Bethesda stating about the second-hand market being a problem. We heard so from EA and what not, but the closest to Bethesda I could pin, was Obsidians Chris Avellone stating on F:NV.
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ddmuse: Here's the (obvious) point that you missed: As indicated by the quoted sales information, fans did exactly what you suggest above; they bought the game rather than pirating it, producing fantastic sales for Bethesda.

Yet Bethesda still moved to online-DRM. As Paingiver mentions (and you concede), DRM has little to no effect on pirates. Thus the intuitive leap is that such DRM must have another aim, namely preventing secondhand sales.
First, I never suggested to buy the game despite you dislike / don't want the DRM involved.

Since supposition is the obvious way to go here, I'd claim that it's at least as much likely that Bethesda took that road because they didn't saw a better way, as your assumption of secondhand sales. Who's right we're likely to never find out.

Quick one: did the use of speed traps eliminated or significantly lowered the amount of racers on the streets? No? Yet they're still in use, despite their ineffectiveness. Why? Because there's no better way so far - and no, penalty = effectiveness doesn't work. We probably all know how much easier it is to get away with pirating software then with speeding.
However, I have yet to hear about a case where speed limits where taken off, because of people speeding even more in protest. It's just illusory that people drive more reasonable, the less speed limits are on the road.

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ddmuse: Now, I'm all for limited government, so I'm open to being convinced that transparency is somehow a bad thing (tho it's somewhat off-topic here; you can PM if you like).
Hold your horses. I never claimed anything about transparency not being good. I'm a fan of it.
But demanding transparency because you don't like DRM and for the ease of your gaming mind, when we have lack of transparency in governments / companies in general, which is resulting in people actually dying, yes that's mindboggling... epic.... ridiculousness.

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Siannah: The point is, the publishers / devs don't have to prove they trust us gamers that we don't pirate their work. It's us gamers who have to earn that trust back. And I don't see this happening, not even with The Witcher 2.
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ddmuse: So we're criminals until we prove our innocence?
Sadly, yes. Can't say I like or approve it, but as it stands right now: yes. Especially after the amount of pirated The Witcher 2 games, despite the option to get it DRM-free - yes, we failed to prove it.
Post edited February 10, 2012 by Siannah
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jepsen1977: Yes, you can choose to be a scumbag and pirate the game just as anyone can choose to steal something rather than pay for it. But no matter how you try to justify it you will still be a scumbag. It's a simple as this - if you don't want to use Steam then don't play any games that is on Steam and that includes Skyrim.
So, if one pirates the game after legitimately acquiring it thrice, where does that leave him? I'm not needling you, just curious that by calling pirates "scumbags", which camp these people would stand in, in your opinion.
Post edited February 10, 2012 by lowyhong
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jepsen1977: Yes, you can choose to be a scumbag and pirate the game just as anyone can choose to steal something rather than pay for it. But no matter how you try to justify it you will still be a scumbag. It's a simple as this - if you don't want to use Steam then don't play any games that is on Steam and that includes Skyrim.
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lowyhong: So, if one pirates the game after legitimately acquiring it thrice, where does that leave him? I'm not needling you, just curious that by calling pirates "scumbags", which camp these people would stand in, in your opinion.
I'm not sure I fully understand your question but if you are asking me what I think about someone who pirates a game they already bought at full price then I personally don't have a problem with that. That person has already given his money and support to the industry. It's still illegal though. The ones I called scumbags are those gamers that play many many games and yet have never purchased a single one.
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Protoss: World of Goo, Witcher 2, etc. were published without DRM. So what? If no DRM = piracy, then why is there piracy with DRM titles? If no DRM = no sales, why did World of Goo and Witcher 2 sell nicely? If DRM = no piracy, why was Spore the most copied title?
Am I too late in saying that DRM is not aimed at full blown pirates put there?
DRM intends to slow down the piracy around release time, to give a helping hand to the initial sales. And most importantly stop you from trading games.
Trading games is also the reason for online codes being sold for second hand titles. Companies want in on the second hand sales, that's it.