Sorry, just leaving aside the whole Steam matter for a minute, i really don't get the meaning of your last post....

You clam piracy is "invented by media" and you talk about a country where for years it was the norm, not only for personal use, but even for shops raised cash selling stuff that they were not entitled to (same was in my country, back in the C64/Amiga era, since there was a "hole" in the laws, that did not yet consider software)

You say piracy is an "excuse" and than you tell us you were ridiculed by people for buying original, and could not persuade one to spend 5 bucks on a game.

So, you describe us a situation where the problem is very real, and yet you state that it is not.... which is it?!

@Paingiver: Well that's one of the "problems" of GoG forums that we assume everyone has the same background as ourselves. I can see now that I was indeed wrong in my asumptions here about you and I do apologize for that. Like I told Psyringe I am in RL not a confrontational guy and I don't like to insult people but at the same time dishonesty does piss me off and I did think your rant was just a cheap way to rage against Steam but I see now that that wasn't the case and again I do apologize for that.

Now let me make one thing perfectly clear: I don't condone piracy in any way and I hate it when people justify piracy as a way to punish the publishers because just like in RL you can't just break the law because you disagree with it. And I don't mind calling people who ONLY pirate games for scumbags (which isn't that big of an insult) because they don't support the industry at all. But there are few caveats here and one is that you are correct that in some countries games are so expensive that it isn't "realistic" to expect people to buy them. In Denmark a game cost between 1-2 % of your salary a month before taxes and yet there are still people who pirate games because they don't want to pay for them and I DO find that unacceptable.

I don't agree with you about Steam but I understand and respect your opinion about it. Steam offers some benefits (low prices on sales, unlimited DLs, easy patching, social aspect, no disk required etc.) and have some drawbacks (DRM, client takes up RAM, slow servers, must use client etc.) You must do the math if it is worth it to you or not but Steam is pretty up front with what it is doing and you can then make an informed choice. But breaking the law because you disagree with it is never a good idea - if you want to make sure the publishers get the message then boycott the game and don't buy it that is the most effective way to "punish" them.

So in the end yes, I admit I was wrong about you as a person and your motives for saying what you did and I do apologize for that. But I will not apologize for standing up agianst piracy and the impact that it has on the gaming industry. I have played games since 1987 (C64) and PC since 1994 and I care deeply for the industry that I love and I hate to see what is happening to the PC marked because of piracy. Yes, some countries where buying games full price is not on option, piracy may be a last resort but please buy games whenever you can as I now know you do.

So I hope we can agree to disagree and still be "friends" here on GoG.

Problem is real, but DRM won't stop pirates from pirating since it doesn't affect them, the only thing it will do is stopping second hand sales. Ergo, DRM isn't against pirates, it's against second-hand sales. People who enforce DRM usually aren't idiots and, by this point, very well know it won't stop piracy. Simple as that.

Thanks, but mine was actually a rhetorical question... I already have my personal view on the matter, i was just a bit confused (and snarky, yes) at what exactly was he impliying with that long "story of his life" introduction

But you see, that's the point. While piracy indeed is rampant in Eastern Europe, Turkey, Russia, and other low-income areas, DRM does nothing to remedy that situation.

Also, it can be argued whether the phenomenon I've mentioned above is truly a "problem". These areas have GDP that is the fraction of that of the US or Western European countries, so gamers from these countries would have a very hard time keeping up with a gaming hobby if they were to obtain every game legally. It's not true that every pirated game is a lost sale, because over there people would not buy most games at full price anyway.

It's really not hard to see why a publisher would go Steam-only. DRM, DLC delivery, patch delivery and most importantly most consumers love the program.

I've been called a Steam basher more times than I can count, but seriously... it's a popular platform with publisher benefits, it's a no-brainer.

Around 1 EUR per game (regardless of size, DRM, whatever), at the local market. Some people whine that even that is too much.

Unless it is business related and required by law, people won't buy software, especially not from foreign publishers / developers.

Same goes for movies and music.

Let me tell you a little story way back from my days, which started with the C64 and an Amiga. Yes I pirated games. Not one or two but all of them.

The first time I really became aware that this does have consequences was with Apidya developed by Kaiko (with Chris Hülsbeck on board). A side-scrolling shooter similar to the R-Type series which became glowing reviews (90% or more) everywhere. But it didn't sold and two years later Kaiko was out of business. I remember (but can't prove / link) about an article where it was stated that they sold only 10'000 copies of it. Even with the smaller market at that time in mind, everyone with basic math can see why.

The turning point for me was the dissolution of Thalion Software who created classics like Ambermoon / Amberstar / Dragonflight / Lionheart, but couldn't sell enough to stay in business - but about every Amiga gamer had at least one or more of those titles at home.

The way you point at piracy is, as if it's been used as a scapegoat to cut your rights as a costumer. This may be the case in several occasions, but isn't the norm. Two problems with that:
- there's no "who was first? The egg or the chicken?" question here. Piracy was rampant before the first copy protection was put on games.
- you can't take rights without also taking duties.
You can't claim the right to play your games DRM-free and force companies to release them so, with no solution on how to prevent piracy. Yes this does work in some cases (gog.com) but as a norm, it failed time and time again. Yet we're wondering why companies are TRYING to protect themselves from it?

I'll stand on my point of view: to actually do something against further and more DRM, don't pirate and pay for what you play.

Sources besides your (obvious) opinions? I have yet to see Bethesda stating about the second-hand market being a problem. We heard so from EA and what not, but the closest to Bethesda I could pin, was Obsidians Chris Avellone stating on F:NV.

That's.... mindboggling... epic.... ridiculousness.

Wait. You meant that seriously?

Government (or politicians) and transparency should not be allowed to be used in the same sentence by law. Not even for description purpose which I just did. Ever.

However if your.... proposal.... would be accepted, I can come up with 100 other companies where THIS. WOULD. ACTUALLY. MATTER. Within 15 minutes. Like every bank, pharmaceutical / oil / healthcare company as a start.

We already strayed on several occasions. Like between DRM and digital distribution. However Bethesda was able to sell a fuckton of copies with Steam, which makes your point moot.
The point is, the publishers / devs don't have to prove they trust us gamers that we don't pirate their work. It's us gamers who have to earn that trust back. And I don't see this happening, not even with The Witcher 2.

Apology accepted. Thank you for understanding. As i said before i develop software too. And believe me developing game is hard that you start to respect even the crappiest ones. That's why i always try to give those people what they deserve.

Though we "differ" in some case what is "piracy" and what is not. Where does it start and where does it end. Of course we will be friends. We are friends. That's why i was so surprised when i declared as a troll. Everyone has free thoughts and with this thoughts we live in a diverse and interesting world.
You again forgot that the DRM has no effect on pirates. That's the biggest breaking point. It is useless. Proven thousands times.

Going DRM-free doesn't work out either and has no effect on pirates. Also proven time and time again.
See The Witcher 2 and CDProjekt feeling "the need" to go after / do something about pirates.
Staying with my given example: Thalion Software released Lionheart without any copy protection and stated that pre-release clearly, with making further developments for the Amiga dependent on it's sales. 1 year later they filed for insolvency.
It's rather obviously why this doesn't / won't work for most other companies / new releases and why they will keep trying to do something about it.

Yes, DRM isn't the answer, we propably all agree here. But where's the counterproposal / alternative from us gamers who would like DRM to disappear?

Just curious since this thread's been going on for awhile... wait, this is a question and it has been answered numerous times within these ~100 posts.

So why hasn't a post been chosen as the answer yet and the discussion possibly moved into a new thread since it's been off-track for the vast majority of posts?

Publishing the stuff on GOG or the own website.

World of Goo, Witcher 2, etc. were published without DRM. So what? If no DRM = piracy, then why is there piracy with DRM titles? If no DRM = no sales, why did World of Goo and Witcher 2 sell nicely? If DRM = no piracy, why was Spore the most copied title?

Once, I used a crack on FATE. On a game I had bought. Because the activations ran out.
So yea, not every pirated copy is (moralically) an illegal one.

Yet CDProjekt Red felt the need to go after pirates of The Witcher 2. Which created an uproar / negative ramblings on several newssites and was also picked up negatively right here on this board - if that's your solution, I foresee no change at all.
Yes the way CDProjekt handled that wasn't a good way, no doubt about it. But where's the better way?

So many things wrong with this one.
- there's piracy with or without DRM. Which actually blows your above mentioned alternative out of the water.
- nobody claimed that no DRM = no sales. But can you or someone else point out how many more sales a title had, because it went the no DRM approach? Does no DRM actually result in less piracy and more sales? Because that's what the devs / publishers want.
- again, nobody claimed that DRM = no piracy. DRM is in it for some control and to stale day one copies. How good that's achieved, is irrelevant as long as nobody came up with a better solution.

Oh, and the World of Goo part... read this. 90% piracy rate for an excellent title by a two guys dev team. Does that sound a bell why companies putting in millions in the development of a AAA-title have a problem with that?
It's one thing to ignore it for a small two guys dev team, even if their new game is just good and not great like WoG. For a dev team with a few dozens of employees that's not to be taken lightly.

Which brings us back to step 1: why DRM appeared at all? Because of piracy. Do we now blame the pirates or the devs / publishers?

That isn't a pirate copy. The loss of your activations and the publisher's failure to ensure that you could exploit your rights under the EULA meant that the publisher had failed to comply with their own EULA. Under German law you are entitled to take reasonable measures (e.g. by means of a crack) to make reasonable repairs to the product for it to be usable.

Sure, but would have DRM have had any significant impact? I say no.
The issue is the moralic decay. Look, there are too many assholes here in the street who go over it at red. They publically disobey the law. Now a while ago we had four murders in one year, the crime rate is going up. Why? Because people lose their morale if they see others also are immorale.

As a young girl, soon you can't be any secure anymore. It won't be long until this city is full of rape, murder and other crime, just like big cities are. Why? Because people disobey the law, because people disobey any morale.

What is the reason? The reason is the laws are not enforced enough. Enforce the laws that exist already, don't make new ones. SOPA/PIPA/ACTA are just invitations to disobey the law even more, because now it will be huge companies that can disobey the law at their will, wrongly claiming copyrights, being the new Stalins of the internet. You are against them, you die - or rather, your internet is cut off and maybe your phone as well and sooner than later you'll go into a database with criminals that will be publically accessible, or at least by job agencies, and then good luck.

The solution?
Take all power away from private companies! Stop the DMCA! Stop all that shit! If people think there is an illegal action, let the police handle it. And instate citizen councils to overwatch the police, to prevent them from disobeying the law.
Make the law system more efficient. Make people feel safe on the streets again. Take the driver license away if someone goes over a red light, and have them reacquire it after at least two years and for the full cost, including training courses etc. And take the license away forever at the third criminal action. Why not? Test three strikes in real life, and there won't be any need to have it on the internet.

Dystopia? Far from that! I want to live in a world where I don't have to panick each time I drive in a car because some asshole will just run over the red light (as peasant) or shoots out of the next corner where it is clearly illegal (as driver).. Let's bring the law to the streets and people will be more willing to obey the law at home.