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Kabuto: sigh
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GameRager: He's right though, you know.
sigh.

His selective replying still doesn't explain away the fact he makes illegal download links available. Explain that away.

Thsi forum feels completely foreign to me now. I never ever would have thought the thread would go this way where you know he's not on the up and up but because there's enough grey area it's somehow okay.
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GameRager: He's right though, you know.
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Kabuto: sigh.

His selective replying still doesn't explain away the fact he makes illegal download links available. Explain that away.

Thsi forum feels completely foreign to me now. I never ever would have thought the thread would go this way where you know he's not on the up and up but because there's enough grey area it's somehow okay.
if it were as bad as you claim it would've been deleted or locked already so stop complaining and enjoy the forums.
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GameRager: He's right though, you know.
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Kabuto: sigh.

His selective replying still doesn't explain away the fact he makes illegal download links available. Explain that away.

Thsi forum feels completely foreign to me now. I never ever would have thought the thread would go this way where you know he's not on the up and up but because there's enough grey area it's somehow okay.
My selective replies are to deconstruct your red herrings. I suspect most people are positing red herrings due to an ideological belief that this guy "should be wrong". If the only real evidence of wrongdoing you have is "illegal" download links he has posted on his website I suggest you focus on that instead of making crap up.
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hedwards: Unless somebody has actual evidence that this is illegal or that the store owner is breaking the law, they really ought to just cram it. Because making such false statements is slander in some parts of the world and in the rest it's merely because of the additional motive requirement.
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orcishgamer: That's absurd!!! When it's written it's called libel:)

Sorry, hope I got that Spiderman quote right.
Libel is in print, posting on web fora is sort of a grey area. If it were a web article, then it definitely would be libel. But as this is more the equivalent of a bunch of folks hanging out taking, it's hard to say which classification it should be.
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orcishgamer: That's absurd!!! When it's written it's called libel:)

Sorry, hope I got that Spiderman quote right.
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hedwards: Libel is in print, posting on web fora is sort of a grey area. If it were a web article, then it definitely would be libel. But as this is more the equivalent of a bunch of folks hanging out taking, it's hard to say which classification it should be.
I believe most cases in the US where blog discussions were an issue focused on libel laws. There certainly may be some slander laws that apply is some cases. I was just trying to make a funny:)
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hedwards: Unless you've got some sort of citation or actual evidence, you really ought to stifle it. You assume that there's no way that they could do it, but I don't see any actual evidence that they can't do so legally.

All I see in your post is slander.
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stonebro: Eh? This is economic common sense, and a bit of deduction. If you care to follow:

I hypotesize that it is impossible to sell DNF to US customers, or EU customers for that matter, for a price below $30, at a profit. I doubt he's selling the game for purely altruistic motives with a loss, so it follows that something is fishy with this deal.

If you want to look up import laws, then fine. To my best knowledge you can't buy goods abroad for reselling without suffering import tolls that severely impact your profit margins. It's a basic economic safeguard that holds true for most countries in the developed world.

You can import goods privately, to an extent. The extent is usually way below the volume you'd need to set up a business and profit from it.

Another issue is the asked price. If he'd been selling the keys for around $40 then it might be believable that by some way it's possible to make that profitable within legal boundaries. But for below $30? That's about half of what the retail asking price will be, and probably less than what retailers are paying the publisher, domestically, to purchase the product.

Add to that the fact that I know of people who do this kind of thing in Norway too. They'll drive to Poland, buy up loads of CDs and DVDs at an extremely favourable exchange rate, pack the car full, and drive home via some semi deserted forest road where the customs department are unlikely to be at 3 am. Then they underprice the market at home, primarily in online auctions. You see lots of this on ebay too I'm sure.

Thing is, since you're buying solely with the purpose of reselling, this is illegal according to our import laws. There was also a much reported case in Germany about a guy buying thousands of copies of MW2 in Poland and reselling in Germany. He got busted and started something of an online forum crusade to justify his actions. Which doesn't matter - it is illegal - and there are good reasons why, economically.
There is no importing going on here. You enter the key and the local Steam server fills the request. I'd have to see some actual case law to back up the notion that a CD Key can be imported or exported. Since these are region free keys, there is no way of knowing which region they ought to belong to. There is no prima facie basis for assuming that it should be treated as a tangible item.

The initial hypothesis is bad and I can't grant it to you. I'm less familiar with the EU than the US, but there is no requirement that an individual sell a product for a given price in the US. The only rules involve collusion and dumping. Neither of which would apply to the owner of the shop.

Further more, attempts by the publisher to prevent the keys from being imported could be seen as anti-competitive and as such subject to court interference. Once you've bought the keys the publisher doesn't have any legal right to control how you use them provided you only use the key once.

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stonebro: So don't come accusing me of random slander. This is probably about the most sensible and worked-through conclusion you're likely to find in this thread.
Given the amount of BS in the rest of your post, the only reason you wouldn't be guilty of slander here is the motive requirement. But in the UK where the owner of the shop is located, there is no such requirement as far as I can tell.
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orcishgamer: I believe most cases in the US where blog discussions were an issue focused on libel laws. There certainly may be some slander laws that apply is some cases. I was just trying to make a funny:)
I know, it's just a point that I needed to make for those that might be reading.
Post edited May 30, 2011 by hedwards
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Kabuto: sigh.

His selective replying still doesn't explain away the fact he makes illegal download links available. Explain that away.

Thsi forum feels completely foreign to me now. I never ever would have thought the thread would go this way where you know he's not on the up and up but because there's enough grey area it's somehow okay.
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orcishgamer: My selective replies are to deconstruct your red herrings. I suspect most people are positing red herrings due to an ideological belief that this guy "should be wrong". If the only real evidence of wrongdoing you have is "illegal" download links he has posted on his website I suggest you focus on that instead of making crap up.
When people see smoke they assume there is a fire. Are you vouching for the seller? I want a cheap copy of DNF! :D
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orcishgamer: My selective replies are to deconstruct your red herrings. I suspect most people are positing red herrings due to an ideological belief that this guy "should be wrong". If the only real evidence of wrongdoing you have is "illegal" download links he has posted on his website I suggest you focus on that instead of making crap up.
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Snickersnack: When people see smoke they assume there is a fire. Are you vouching for the seller? I want a cheap copy of DNF! :D
I don't really need to vouch for him, I haven't done business with him, I suggest you speak to people who've at least claimed to have done so.

People assume all sorts of stuff, some of it's valid and some of it's baseless crap, it's worth pointing out when people are assuming baseless crap, mostly due to preconceived notions that are damaging to normal consumers.
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Snickersnack: When people see smoke they assume there is a fire. Are you vouching for the seller? I want a cheap copy of DNF! :D
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orcishgamer: I don't really need to vouch for him, I haven't done business with him, I suggest you speak to people who've at least claimed to have done so.

People assume all sorts of stuff, some of it's valid and some of it's baseless crap, it's worth pointing out when people are assuming baseless crap, mostly due to preconceived notions that are damaging to normal consumers.
This thread is giving me mixed signals. A deal that seems too good to be true. Warnings that the seller may be shady. Buyer advocacy but also revelation of a referral program. A history of Steam revoking CD-keys purchased outside region (right or wrong).

I'm reading through the thread and trying to make a decision.

You're not supporting the seller, so you are playing the Devil's Advocate? Do you think it is foolish to be concerned?
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orcishgamer: I don't really need to vouch for him, I haven't done business with him, I suggest you speak to people who've at least claimed to have done so.

People assume all sorts of stuff, some of it's valid and some of it's baseless crap, it's worth pointing out when people are assuming baseless crap, mostly due to preconceived notions that are damaging to normal consumers.
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Snickersnack: This thread is giving me mixed signals. A deal that seems too good to be true. Warnings that the seller may be shady. Buyer advocacy but also revelation of a referral program. A history of Steam revoking CD-keys purchased outside region (right or wrong).

I'm reading through the thread and trying to make a decision.

You're not supporting the seller, so you are playing the Devil's Advocate? Do you think it is foolish to be concerned?
Okay, I don't have a Steam account, so take this with a grain of salt.

If I were to buy this, I'd buy it knowing I'd be risking losing my 28.88, I'd do it with a pre-paid debit card or something and activate it on a separate Steam account.

As I said, the fact you could get the game banned has everything to do with Steam and absolutely nothing to do with the legality of the situation (and is one of the reasons I will always argue Steam is bad for the PC platform).

If you play it for a couple weeks and it gets banned, well, just pick it up during a Black Friday or Christmas sale for 15 or less and you still come out ahead. Or maybe it wasn't worth playing again and good enough.

I guess you could say I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but really I just abhor this notion that it's okay for business to take advantage of low priced labor and goods internationally, buy laws that make importing and exporting a breeze, but when the consumers that suffer due to this practice try to do the same thing they are somehow "evil". It's a double standard and one I especially dislike.

I also dislike this whole, if you aren't supporting the developers you're evil, cognitive dissonance. It's okay to buy Steam or MS sales for a dollar or less, it's okay to swap used games, it's okay to buy games years after they are released, it's okay to buy and sell used, and yet none of these supports the developers much or even at all (directly at least). The line people are drawing is insane and actually detrimental to the gaming industry as a whole. I guarantee some of your favorite developers pirated the hell out of games back in the C64 days, where will the next generation come from if we only allow people who have 100s of dollars in disposable income every month enjoy games? The gaming industry is NOT dying.
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Snickersnack:
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orcishgamer: If I were to buy this, I'd buy it knowing I'd be risking losing my 28.88, I'd do it with a pre-paid debit card or something and activate it on a separate Steam account.

I guess you could say I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but really I just abhor this notion that it's okay for business to take advantage of low priced labor and goods internationally, buy laws that make importing and exporting a breeze, but when the consumers that suffer due to this practice try to do the same thing they are somehow "evil". It's a double standard and one I especially dislike.
"If I were to buy this, I'd buy it knowing I'd be risking losing my 28.88, I'd do it with a pre-paid debit card or something and activate it on a separate Steam account."

They use PayPal, so you don´t need a pre paid debit card.

" I guess you could say I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but really I just abhor this notion that it's okay for business to take advantage of low priced labor and goods internationally, buy laws that make importing and exporting a breeze, but when the consumers that suffer due to this practice try to do the same thing they are somehow "evil". It's a double standard and one I especially dislike."
Agree
Well, assuming it's not illegal, where the hell are they getting these keys from?
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Raneman25: Well, assuming it's not illegal, where the hell are they getting these keys from?
Poor countries, I thought that was obvious...
Just another thing to take note of: Valve employ some form of usermap to track multiple Steam accounts. So adding the game to a separate account may not guarantee the safety of your main account.

This can be ascertained from the following comment: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22568888&postcount=5
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bansama: Just another thing to take note of: Valve employ some form of usermap to track multiple Steam accounts. So adding the game to a separate account may not guarantee the safety of your main account.

This can be ascertained from the following comment: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22568888&postcount=5
It's called proxies...use one when making the other account. Heck, just use a different OS....steam somehow sees my two OSs as different PCs so just use two OSs on separate partitions and all should be fine.